Veering left all the time, don't think it's P factor

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Styggron
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Veering left all the time, don't think it's P factor

Post by Styggron »

Hi everyone,

I first experienced P Factor when I first took off on the A2A C172, however, with the Avro anson left to it's own devices it *always* wants to veer left / bank left more and more.

There does not seem to be a rudder trim anyway in the cockpit which is odd (yes I know, it's not an accu sim plane). One thread here suggests assigning a key for rudder trim.

Thoughts ? Surely it's not constant P factor. When I mean veer left it veeeeeers left. You have to keep almost constant pressure on the controls else you will go left.
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
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Killratio
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Re: Veering left all the time, don't think it's P factor

Post by Killratio »

Haven't flown her since beta but the Anson does not have contra rotating props. This means that ALL engine torque, P Factor etc etc operates ONE WAY. Many twins have the props set to rotate opposite directions so the two sets of engine forces contra each other.

Bottom line is that most aircraft like this need constant attention/control pressure.

It also means that some have VERY marginal or insufficient single engine performance if the CRITICAL engine fails. If the Anson pulls left and your left engine fails, you're in for an interesting descent!

In fact in 1962 ALL Civil Reg Anson Mk I's in Australia were permanently grounded over single engine performance and wing concerns.

In FSX one of the joys of flying carefully researched, carefully modelled aircraft is dealing with what real pilots have to deal with. (Much of which they will never even think to mention as it all happens very automatically!)
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Styggron
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Re: Veering left all the time, don't think it's P factor

Post by Styggron »

Killratio wrote:Haven't flown her since beta but the Anson does not have contra rotating props. This means that ALL engine torque, P Factor etc etc operates ONE WAY. Many twins have the props set to rotate opposite directions so the two sets of engine forces contra each other.

Bottom line is that most aircraft like this need constant attention/control pressure.

It also means that some have VERY marginal or insufficient single engine performance if the CRITICAL engine fails. If the Anson pulls left and your left engine fails, you're in for an interesting descent!

In fact in 1962 ALL Civil Reg Anson Mk I's in Australia were permanently grounded over single engine performance and wing concerns.

In FSX one of the joys of flying carefully researched, carefully modelled aircraft is dealing with what real pilots have to deal with. (Much of which they will never even think to mention as it all happens very automatically!)
So you think it is P Factor then ? If so, I wonder why they did not hake them rotate in opposite directions, it seems like a no brainer ?

There does not seem to be any rudder trim either that might help take the pressure off the controls. Not sure if the FSX default kepys CTRL+number pad 0 and ENTER actually do anything in the Anson. I'll have to try it out.

Left to its own devices though it just banks more and more so constant pressure needed to just fly straight. If you leave it for more than 4-5 seconds you will veer left again.

Interested to know if other Anson flyers have this issue.
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
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Killratio
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Re: Veering left all the time, don't think it's P factor

Post by Killratio »

The main problem we have when assessing older aircraft is judging them on today's standards. The Sopwith Camel, one of the greatest Scouts of the First War (and arguably the Spitfire of that war) took constant and heavy forward pressure on the stick and substantial left rudder just to keep it level at flying speeds. No trim at all. The SE5a, the "Hurricane" of the First War introduced an elevator trim which was revolutionary. The Camel killed many, many pilots on takeoff when, at about 200 feet, the mixture had to be manually adjusted and the pilot had to lean forward and down to do so. The BF109 had limited trim options and was said to be "tiring" to fly on long sorties. The FW190's overheated worse than the Baby Spitfires. The list goes on....


If an aircraft had many of those sorts of features today, it would not get certified and if it did, any pilot who flew it would be certified!!


Back on main point, the contra rotating props WERE on the Westland Whirlwind (which was considered a revolutionary aircraft) but WEREN'T on the Mossie (which, you guessed it..was also considered revolutionary). Weren't on Vivkers Wellington (at least not on radials, not sure about the Merlins), were on the P38, not on the Dornier Do 17..............
The forces involved in Twins, of couirse, are not as straight forward as singles as propwash can be striking both sides of the fuselage.

It is easy to forget that when the Anson was designed, powered flight was only 30 years old.

Then you add the fact that most pilots don't talk about anything that is routine (unless it sounds impressive or dangerous :) :) ) So you won't find many mention that they put in quite a bit of left rudder to climb, or have to push forward reasonably hard to stop a C172R nose pitching too far up as they lift off, or have to lead a turn on the ground with rudder by about 15 minutes in a Tiger Moth that hasn't had damned modern brakes added and come uncomfortably close to the moron in the Trike who has decided to cut in and take off first! (OK, that last one might be a personal beef ;) )

Finally, you add years of "on rails" flight characteristics in flight simulators and most sim pilots are conditioned to think "why the hell would they build and aircraft that does that" as soon as they encounter any of the more extreme effects.

Perfectly reasonable attitude too and not restricted to flying. I once had a young secretary who refused to believe that there was such a thing as a Manual Typewriter because

1. It would be far too hard to press keys that hard all day.
2. They had Electric Typewriters before Computers, why would they have needed manual?

But don't get me started on that line of thinking....


I'll reinstall the Anson this weekend and have a fly and let you know what I find.


Darryl
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Styggron
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Re: Veering left all the time, don't think it's P factor

Post by Styggron »

Thank you :)
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
Watch my incompetent flying Twitch

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