crash at take off with C172 and C182

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Nick - A2A
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Nick - A2A »

Thanks for recording the videos RR. I watched the first one a couple of times, and as far as I can see from the rudder and ailerons, there are no appropriate control inputs being made to prevent the crash after the wheels leave the runway.

For instance, there's no right rudder input applied as you rotate and no attempt to arrest the roll to the left with right rudder or right wing down aileron input. Instead, it looks like the aircraft is stalling due to an excessive aft elevator input pretty much throughout the recording.

Have you checked that each of the control surfaces are responding properly to your inputs, as previously mentioned?

Thanks,
Nick

P.S. As regards the comparison between P3D and FSX, have you checked to see that realism setting are the same in each?

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

Effectively, in this video, I wanted to show you what’s happen after the take off.
In my previous attempt I tryed to overcome the tendency to go to the left by applying
Ailerons and rudder to the right.
But then the Cessna reacts excessively to the right and crashes anyway!
You have seen that with fsx it is another story.
Under P3D, the pictures are much better, that is the reason why I would like to find the solution.
On top of it, I don’t have the C172 installed in FSX.

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

I have modified the realis byadjusting all the controls from 100% to 50%.
With those changes I can control the plane much better.
I will continue now trying to fly in P3D and compare the results with FSX.
But the program comes already with everithing set at 100% and I would appreciate if you could try it yourself and tell me if it is possible to control the airpâlne with those settings.
thanks again for all your efforts .
Ramon

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Nick - A2A
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Nick - A2A »

Hi Ramon,
ramonr wrote:But the program comes already with everithing set at 100% and I would appreciate if you could try it yourself and tell me if it is possible to control the airpâlne with those settings.
Yes, the plane is perfectly controllable with realism set to 100% and this is actually the setting we'd recommend. I was just wondering if you've been using the default realism setting in FSX (which is believe is 'easy') and this had allowed some bad habits to creep in, in terms of control inputs during the take-off?

Thanks,
Nick

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

Hi Nick
I want to believe you, but in a previous conversation I explained that I had taken more than 20 hours training on Cessna with an instructor of the army. He was also head of the instructors on F16. All this to explain that he is someone who has a lot of experience. During all these hours I have never experienced this kind of difficulty. I had to stop because of the view and not for a lack of skill. I never crashed and I am not dead. I therefore feel that the version of my program A2A has a problem of too high sensitivity. I would say that it could correspond to a sensitivity of about 200%!
That is the reason when I would have liked that you would have made physicalisme this test on your computer. Just put of curiosity.

Ramon

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Nick - A2A
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Nick - A2A »

Hi Ramon,

I appreciate that; I'm just going on what I can see in the video you kindly posted (this one). However, it's hard to say whether the issue is caused by inappropriate control inputs, or an issue with the way your controllers are set up.

I asked before, but it's something we really need to focus on: when you move your joystick, do you see the control surfaces in the 172/182 in P3D respond as you'd expect? Another question: what hardware do you use to make rudder inputs in the simulator?
ramonr wrote:That is the reason when I would have liked that you would have made physicalisme this test on your computer. Just put of curiosity.
I've done lots of test flights with the 182 over the past few weeks Ramon - in P3Dv4.2 and with full realism settings with no issues during take-off. The problem in your case seems to be one of control setup and/or technique but whichever is the case, thanks for your patience as we try to get to the bottom of it. :)

Cheers,
Nick

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

Hi Nick
here my last investigation:
I have adjusted the realim settings to "Hard" in FSX.
and as a result of it I could take-off the C182 without problem and continue flying while easily controling the heading .
I went also through deifferent forums to see what the other are saying about the controls of FSX and P3D.
most of the people are saying the Same :
100% of control doesn't work in P3D!
here below some examples of discussions I found on the net:

From AVSim
Beware Control Realism Setting in P3DV3 is no longer like FSX or previous P3D

By xxxxxr2050, December 25, 2015 in The Prepar3d Forum
Hi Folks,
Yeah - just purchased my first A2A products - while they are EXCEPTIONALLY well done - I've noticed crosswinds are pretty tough and ground effect almost seems like launch you like a catapult back into the air (I believe A2A does their own things outside of P3D)... I was wondering if there was a way to adjust these effects... For the record - I've made plenty of real world landing in a several different types of SEL GA aircraft for the comparison and the P3D effects seem a bit exaggerated...
Regards,
xxxxx
____________________________________________________________________________
I thanks for the detailed explanation, but we have folks flying 737 fighting rudder due to very little cross wind, that was all the Information I needed after my suspicions.
All what you say I think is true for fsx and earlier versions of p3d. Always used to set max realism in fsx after every new install and boy did I reinstall fsx
But on my system 100% in fsx is like 25% in p3d
My interpretation of that is, there is an issue in way p3d handing this, or their control realism slider has not been properly CALIBRATED
Xxxxx member
_____________________________________________________________________________

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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by MarcE »

I went also through deifferent forums to see what the other are saying about the controls of FSX and P3D.
most of the people are saying the Same :
100% of control doesn't work in P3D!
I have NO idea what these "most" guys are doing to be honest. If you set up your P3D as adviced (also in concern of additional weather programs, FSUIPC and so on) it will work just perfectly. Yes, the "ground effect" handling is different in the P3D version but after 250h+ in the C172 in real world flying I find it matches pretty well to the A2A aircraft.

Af few things, maybe I have skipped some of these points in previous posts...

- How do you load into the simulator? Which airplane is turning in the preview window when you click on P3D and it has loaded up BEFORE doing ANY changes? PLEASE ANSWER THIS QUESTION as it is REALLY significant!!!

- Leave your settings on hard. It does work. if not, it's something else but NOT the A2A addon, promised. it works for thousands of users, only a few (not most) actually have problems. and the way those guys search for support (also on reddit and several FB groups etc) makes me suppose they have completely messed up setups after several unsuccessful attempts to tweak the aircraft.cfg and/or Prepar3d.cfg. Don't do that. And don't reinstall your addons until it is definitely adviced by the developer to do so. it normally just makes things worse but seldomly solves anything.

- turn off or even uninstall your third party antivirus, if you have any. In win 10 WindowsDefender is absolutely sufficiant. Many AV programms act more like a virus than like an anti virus. They corrupt installations or take influence on running services like e.g. control inputs.

-Temporarily remove the FSUIPC.dll from your modules folder in your P3D installation if you have it. This is just to check if FSUIPC is corrupted. If your issues are solved, delete the FSUIPC.ini and reinstall the latest version from schiratti.com.

-Delete all virtual axes from your P3D control settings that are assigned twice or more times. P3D WILL assign major flight controls to all available axes it can find. even to virtual axes on your gaming mouse, and so on... check through the settings carefully.

Cheers and we will get you solved.
Marc

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

hi Nick I will try to follow your advices .
The P3D starts with the f-22 raptor as the first choise.
I have to go through "change vehicle" to select the A2A choices.
About changes that I could have made into the P3D or the A2A programs, believe me or not but I did nothing!
I am engineer in mechanics and not a computer scientist.
I will look for the antivirus but each time I load something new I always turn it off.
For the FSUIPC.dll I only find one in fsx (FSUIPC4.dll) and nothing in Lockheed Martin!
For the delete of the virtual axis, I don't know how to do that.
I went into the options of P3D but I don't see what I could delete there.
RR

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

HI Marc sorry, I thought Iwas replying to Nick !

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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Oracle427 »

It's a web forum, so you are "replying to all".
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
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ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

Everybody can effectively read all the discussions but I was directly replying to the questions of Marc!

flapman
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by flapman »

I really haven't been following this discussion, but I have watched the P3D crash video (and I have RL C172 PIC time)

The uncommanded roll could be the result of a lateral imbalance. My suspicion would be a full left fuel tank, and a right empty tank. In your video we also saw a default "flying tip" presented. Can you please tell us what that message (which displayed at the top of the screen) is?
It looks like the rolling motion combined with excessive pitch up/angle of attack, which resulted in a power on stall, which then immediately developed into a low altitude spin.

Please check that approximately equal fuel is in LEFT and RIGHT fuel tanks? Hopefully we can eliminate this scenario.

ramonr
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by ramonr »

Hello
I have made numerous trials of take-off.
And even in case of a gentle pitch up the plane turns left and crashes what ever you try to do for compensating.
For the video, I have chosen to show the take-off from the outside and in this case
it is not easy to manoeuver correctly.
The flying tip message is something which comes time to time like
“ Ctrl+E” for starting the engine and so on...
For the left and right tanks, I don’t Know since I didn’t check .
I always fly with both tanks opened.

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Nick - A2A
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Re: crash at take off with C172 and C182

Post by Nick - A2A »

Hi Ramon,

Some good tips there by Marc. Please can you also answer the questions I asked above when you have a moment...
Nick - A2A wrote:when you move your joystick, do you see the control surfaces in the 172/182 in P3D respond as you'd expect? Another question: what hardware do you use to make rudder inputs in the simulator?
flapman wrote:The uncommanded roll could be the result of a lateral imbalance.
I believe the roll to the left is just caused by a lack of corrective rudder response to the normal left-turning forces acting on the aircraft. That's why we need to establish if there is some hardware issue which is preventing rudder inputs from being recognised when the aircraft is airborne. In the P3D video, the rudder is centred and doesn't move at all after the aircraft leaves the ground.

Something else I recommend Ramon is doing your testing in P3D with the 'clear skies' weather theme to rule out any weather effects on the aircraft.

Thanks,
Nick

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