Hi Folks,
I don’t fly complex very often in the RW - so just wondering if we could discuss the instrument approach procedures in the Bonanza and compare notes...
Prior to IAF I’m slowing down to around 140 KTAS - RPM left at cruise setting - MP about 17 - when stepped down to the FAF altitude - RPM set to full - MP 15 - Mixture goes full rich - when GS alive - Gear comes down - Flaps 10 - once established on GS - Flaps 20 - shooting for around 90 KTAS - pattern altitude - Flaps 30 - check Gear - shooting for around 80 KTAS...
Any thoughts ?
Regards,
Scott
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Instrument Approach Procedure
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Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Everything looks good and would make for a safe approach in the bonanza.
Notes I'd add -
I wouldn't set full RPM so early in the approach just for passenger comfort. I normally bump it back up to 2500RPM once established on the approach and leave it there until I can advance to full RPM without the engine following.
Everyone does this next part different but here are my thoughts.... I would become proficient landing with 10 degrees of flap and never extend the flap beyond that in IMC. With some higher performance aircraft this isn't possible but for our small singles I only use one notch of flaps while in the soup so that a missed approach isn't complicated by having full flaps in. (Edit: if I break out of the clouds high enough I'll add flaps late but I will not use more than 10 in the clouds)
Notes I'd add -
I wouldn't set full RPM so early in the approach just for passenger comfort. I normally bump it back up to 2500RPM once established on the approach and leave it there until I can advance to full RPM without the engine following.
Everyone does this next part different but here are my thoughts.... I would become proficient landing with 10 degrees of flap and never extend the flap beyond that in IMC. With some higher performance aircraft this isn't possible but for our small singles I only use one notch of flaps while in the soup so that a missed approach isn't complicated by having full flaps in. (Edit: if I break out of the clouds high enough I'll add flaps late but I will not use more than 10 in the clouds)
Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Hi...
Thanks so much for your insights - very helpful... I’ll try incorporating your procedures into my approaches and see how they work out... I assume you need to carry a bit more speed with only Flaps 10... The difference in approach speeds from full Flaps to no Flaps is 12 knots in my plane... Your flap settings makes sense when in the soup to simplify a go-around... I’m amazed at how much trim is required when hand-flying an approach with this bird... Too much to do for TNG’s - I only do full stops with this one...
Regards,
Scott
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Thanks so much for your insights - very helpful... I’ll try incorporating your procedures into my approaches and see how they work out... I assume you need to carry a bit more speed with only Flaps 10... The difference in approach speeds from full Flaps to no Flaps is 12 knots in my plane... Your flap settings makes sense when in the soup to simplify a go-around... I’m amazed at how much trim is required when hand-flying an approach with this bird... Too much to do for TNG’s - I only do full stops with this one...
Regards,
Scott
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Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
I tend to configure pretty late until reaching the FAF, just as courtesy in case there is a jet or a turboprop following me. It's not uncommon to see aircraft doing 160 knots until reaching the FAF, so I tend to maintain either that or 150 until about 1nm from the FAF. At which point, I would introduce about 10 degrees of flap.
I normally go props full fine just before dropping the gear (an SOP I used to do in the King Air), and then do my landing/gumps checks.
I then progressively add more flaps as I get closer to the threshold, targeting a Vref of about 80 knots. Personally I'm not afraid to drop full flaps, but tend to wait until im at least visual with the runway before doing so (and trying not to drag it in at the same time). It also depends on the runway length.
I normally go props full fine just before dropping the gear (an SOP I used to do in the King Air), and then do my landing/gumps checks.
I then progressively add more flaps as I get closer to the threshold, targeting a Vref of about 80 knots. Personally I'm not afraid to drop full flaps, but tend to wait until im at least visual with the runway before doing so (and trying not to drag it in at the same time). It also depends on the runway length.
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Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Normally on short final with 10 degrees I’m at 85 KIAS. If there is any wind to deal with I’ll carry 90 KIAS. Just remember with 90 KIAS and 10 degrees of flaps you will have more energy to bleed off in the flare so you will float down the runway some. I take this float as a trade off for a more stable approach as long as runway length allows it.
Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Hi Folks,
Thanks so much - plenty of useful information here... Oh - one thing I haven’t tried yet - anyone flown PT’s yet with the autopilot - does it track well at speed ?
Regards,
Scott
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Thanks so much - plenty of useful information here... Oh - one thing I haven’t tried yet - anyone flown PT’s yet with the autopilot - does it track well at speed ?
Regards,
Scott
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
No on the procedure turns but I may try to find one on my next flight to try it out. The AP does well with a direct entry to a hold coupled to the GTN750.
Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
I flew a course reversal yesterday for the first time with AP engaged on the RNAV (GPS) Rwy 6 approach at KHQM (arriving from HIGDA) and it tracked it perfectly. However, I had slowed down quite a bit by the time I reached the IAF as I was a bit nervous about how well the AP would fly the reversal. I was only doing about 125 Kts IAS with flaps at 10.
I have noted that on precision approaches, the AP struggles to hold glideslope if I have to slow down much after GS capture and can be prone to oscillations which eventually prove too much for the AP to handle, so I try to make sure speed is well stabilized at capture. This seems correct to me for this class of AP. Any power reductions after capture should be done VERY gradually.
Scott
I have noted that on precision approaches, the AP struggles to hold glideslope if I have to slow down much after GS capture and can be prone to oscillations which eventually prove too much for the AP to handle, so I try to make sure speed is well stabilized at capture. This seems correct to me for this class of AP. Any power reductions after capture should be done VERY gradually.
Scott
Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Hi Scott,
Thanks for the feedback here as well... I’ll do some holds and testing when I get some time... The GTN’s ability to make any waypoint a hold makes for a mighty fine toolbox...
Regards,
Scott
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Thanks for the feedback here as well... I’ll do some holds and testing when I get some time... The GTN’s ability to make any waypoint a hold makes for a mighty fine toolbox...
Regards,
Scott
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Great thread, Thanks Scott.
Instrument Approach Procedure
Hi Les,Les Parson wrote:Great thread, Thanks Scott.
Happy to help - I’ve gleaned plenty of useful information from the great responses provided...
You and I always seem to gravitate towards the same products and topics - have a good day...
Regards,
Scott
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Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Many thanks, Scott. I think I shall not be seeking greener pastures for a long, long, time as it relates to new FS aircraft. My priority has always been reality based, authentic simulation for aerodynamics and engine physics. I could say much more but that would be too far off topic for this thread. I'll send you a PM in a day or two. Be well.scottb613 wrote:Hi Les,Les Parson wrote:Great thread, Thanks Scott.
Happy to help - I’ve gleaned plenty of useful information from the great responses provided...
You and I always seem to gravitate towards the same products and topics - have a good day...
Regards,
Scott
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Check out this post:
http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 38&t=65720
The document linked in the first post has the information you are looking for, particularly the "By the numbers" section.
http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 38&t=65720
The document linked in the first post has the information you are looking for, particularly the "By the numbers" section.
Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Hi Joe,
Great stuff - let me take a gander - thanks...
Regards,
Scott
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Great stuff - let me take a gander - thanks...
Regards,
Scott
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
- Tailspin45
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Re: Instrument Approach Procedure
Haven't tried it in my A2A Bonanza, to be honest Scott, but the IFR procedure I used IRL made for a no fuss, no muss, relaxed approach.
(Except that time when the Mooney behind me broke its nosewheel in the divot in the runway made by lightning. On that approach, I had a firm grip on the seat and a hand on the throttle and one on the yoke. Definitely stressed. But that's a different topic.)
Anyway, I'd descend by reducing power to 25" [correction 15"} and don't retrim. We'd stay at the same IAS (and enjoy a nice fuel savings) and start down.
If ATC was stepping us down, I'd go back to cruise power at the new assigned altitude. Rinse and repeat until we're down near the airport.
Upon reaching bottom of descent and coming up on the IAF I'd leave the power alone and simply level off. That would put me at gear speed.
(Except that time at level off when the vibration was about to rattle the fillings out of my teeth. Swallowed a valve. But that's a different topic.)
On ILS intercept I'd do nothing but drop the gear, which would start me down and put me on the glideslope.
(Except for that time when the nose wheel wouldn't come down. Seems the cable connected to the nose wheel that retracted the step was fouled and now you know why the step is not retractable. But that's a different topic.)
A turn of the throttle one way or the other would compensate for wind to keep me on glideslope and give me flap speed (but I'd hold them for later--flaps are helpers, not requiredâ€â€on landing all they do is save rubber and roll out distance).
At DH or MDA, if you can see "the runway environment", full flaps and land. Ta-dah, you're down!
If the runway is not in sight, start pulling the nose up to stop the descent while gently pushing the prop up and power up to climb setting (this is not an emergency but don't dilly-dally), then gear up, and trim for Vy.
Go somewhere else (multiple approaches = crash).
I'm not sure what MP will work with our lovely A2A Bonanza, but a couple of approaches will tell you and then you'll have a simple, repeatable procedure that will get you down nice and easy every time. When I have time I'll report back with what I find.
If you have a G-IV behind you and they're asking for best speed to the Marker, that's a different story but the ending is the same, doesn't matter if it's an SR-71. At worst, if you aren't happy, you're PIC, declare a missed approach let them go first and go back out and do it again.
BTW, this doesn't necessarily work in other aircraft but works great in a G-35, S-35, and original F-33 Bonanza. V35B should be the same I'd guess. Other singles are different and take some finagling at each transition.
Summary: power to descend, level to slow, gear to descend, flaps to land.
See Richard Taylor's Positive Flying ($1.99 used) for a more detailed discussion.
(Except that time when the Mooney behind me broke its nosewheel in the divot in the runway made by lightning. On that approach, I had a firm grip on the seat and a hand on the throttle and one on the yoke. Definitely stressed. But that's a different topic.)
Anyway, I'd descend by reducing power to 25" [correction 15"} and don't retrim. We'd stay at the same IAS (and enjoy a nice fuel savings) and start down.
If ATC was stepping us down, I'd go back to cruise power at the new assigned altitude. Rinse and repeat until we're down near the airport.
Upon reaching bottom of descent and coming up on the IAF I'd leave the power alone and simply level off. That would put me at gear speed.
(Except that time at level off when the vibration was about to rattle the fillings out of my teeth. Swallowed a valve. But that's a different topic.)
On ILS intercept I'd do nothing but drop the gear, which would start me down and put me on the glideslope.
(Except for that time when the nose wheel wouldn't come down. Seems the cable connected to the nose wheel that retracted the step was fouled and now you know why the step is not retractable. But that's a different topic.)
A turn of the throttle one way or the other would compensate for wind to keep me on glideslope and give me flap speed (but I'd hold them for later--flaps are helpers, not requiredâ€â€on landing all they do is save rubber and roll out distance).
At DH or MDA, if you can see "the runway environment", full flaps and land. Ta-dah, you're down!
If the runway is not in sight, start pulling the nose up to stop the descent while gently pushing the prop up and power up to climb setting (this is not an emergency but don't dilly-dally), then gear up, and trim for Vy.
Go somewhere else (multiple approaches = crash).
I'm not sure what MP will work with our lovely A2A Bonanza, but a couple of approaches will tell you and then you'll have a simple, repeatable procedure that will get you down nice and easy every time. When I have time I'll report back with what I find.
If you have a G-IV behind you and they're asking for best speed to the Marker, that's a different story but the ending is the same, doesn't matter if it's an SR-71. At worst, if you aren't happy, you're PIC, declare a missed approach let them go first and go back out and do it again.
BTW, this doesn't necessarily work in other aircraft but works great in a G-35, S-35, and original F-33 Bonanza. V35B should be the same I'd guess. Other singles are different and take some finagling at each transition.
Summary: power to descend, level to slow, gear to descend, flaps to land.
See Richard Taylor's Positive Flying ($1.99 used) for a more detailed discussion.
Last edited by Tailspin45 on 20 Oct 2018, 17:09, edited 7 times in total.
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