New Controllers

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Blitzer
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New Controllers

Post by Blitzer »

Hello All,

I have for a number of years been using the Logitech G940, which overall has served me well. The stick is pretty good and I have always been a fan of force feed back, so on this score changing to something without it is off putting. I've never really been overly impressed with the rudder pedals - not liking the central positioning indent which can lead to unsightly corrections during finals. My throttle is now also spiking quite irritatingly so flying the T6 for example is not very pleasant.

Anyway, kind of to the point...

I tried the Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS at Fairford on Sunday (in DCS) and was suitably impressed with the quality and feel, although insufficient time to really settle-in with it. However, with the prospect of discount it is looking like a good time to replace my aging G940.

Secondly, I have really for a year or two been tempted by the MFG Crosswind rudder pedals and am sure these will be far superior to the G940's. The only thing I'm not so keen on is their apparent wide width.

Now really to the point...

I would love to hear from any of you using the Warthog HOTAS or MFG Crosswind pedals, e.g. your long term view of them with regards to their continued performance and reliability - have you experienced and issues or failure with either or any set-up headaches?
Would particularly appreciate any feedback from anyone who regularly use both of these together.

Thanks in advance! :D

BrettT
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Re: New Controllers

Post by BrettT »

Hi Blitzer!

I had once had a 940 system about 4 years ago and sold them and put the money towards a warthog and opted for the Saitek Combat Rudder Pedals. They have been used on a daily basis since then. I have not had a single problem with either. I do have to use a curve with the micro stick on the throttle when using it as a cursor for selecting radar targets or locking visual ground targets in DCS. Aside from that I use it straight up with no spiking or other issues. I do use the stick as a center mount in the cockpit with a 12 cm extension which I have found to be good for both fixed and rotary wings along with heavy birds. I would recommend one of these depending upon your setup as well. Very happy with my purchase

Kind Regards,

Brett

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Alan_A
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Re: New Controllers

Post by Alan_A »

I had a G940 a while ago - I liked it a lot until it died with no warning. I replaced it with a Warthog, which is excellent - I've just gone back to it after some adventures with other controllers (controllers are a bad habit of mine, I've used nearly all of them at one point or another, so I'm always happy to share the experiences).

The only thing you might not like about the Warthog, especially coming from the G940, is that it's very stiff, with a strong centering force. It can be fatiguing to use it for a long session. People have tried various kinds of mods - replacing or removing springs, and adding extensions (as BrettT notes) to increase the throw and provide more fine control in the center of travel. I'd suggest trying the Warthog as is, but if you find you dislike the stiffness, I'd recommend you take a look at the Sahaj extensions, which I can vouch for. The 10cm one is a nice option.

I use the MFG Crosswinds - they're great, and match well with the Warthog or other high-end hardware. Some people have had issues with the connections, but Milan is great about replacing them (his customer service is top notch). The adjustable tension and optional cams mean you can customize them easily to your preference.

I will say - it's a general observation, not specifically about the Crosswinds - that my only issues with high-end custom hardware have had to do with durability and quality control. I've recently had to retire a Virtual Fly throttle quadrant because it started spiking - this is after less than a year in service, and after it had to be replaced under warranty because of a dead circuit board. I think there are tradeoffs when you buy "handcrafted" components, as opposed to those that are manufactured at scale. Thrustmaster reliability and durability are some of the best I've encountered. Related - I'm a big fan of Hall Effect sensors as opposed to potentiometers, which seem to go south on me if I breathe on them.

So... if you're not in an immediate hurry for pedals, you might want to hold out for these upcoming Thrustmaster ones, which will be Hall Effect-based, and which have a narrower chassis than the Crosswinds. I may take a look at them myself. They're not cheap, but as I said, I like Thrustmaster engineering.

Don't get me wrong - the Crosswinds have been a great experience and I recommend them.

Hope this helps.
"Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

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dvm
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Re: New Controllers

Post by dvm »

I have customized crosswind pedals and their performance is as good as it gets. I agree with Alan the new Thrustmaster pedals look very interesting. I wonder when they will become available and how much $$$. I might consider them if I did not already have the crosswinds. Found this link with some info on availability and price.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... E&c3nid=98

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Oracle427
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Re: New Controllers

Post by Oracle427 »

Those TM pedals look pretty good. I'd consider them if my Saitek unit fails. I like the way the pedals are angled, their spacing, and their height above the base. Will have to review specs if available to understand travel limits and forces. I dislike light forces.
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Blitzer
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Re: New Controllers

Post by Blitzer »

Referring back to my original post, I got to try the Warthog HOTAS and the new Pendular Rudder pedals and VR headset during the Fairford air show where Thrustmaster had a stand. However, the use of the equipment was not so much a trial of the hardware but a competition to potentially win some Thrustmaster gear. The upshot of this meant I was not really able to fully appreciate and assess the hardware as I was concentrating more on flying.

Despite the above I was able to form some impression of the gear...

Stick: As Alan noted the spring on the stick did feel rather alien to me, the G940 stick being FFB is very light in use with P3D/FSX. It was definitely smooth and felt very good quality both to touch and in use. My expectation would be that it would take a while to get used to that aspect as well and the loss of FFB. My G940 is set on my desk as would any replacement likely to be so extending the stick would not really work for me, it already looks higher than my current stick.

Throttles: I did not really get to appreciate these much at all, the impression again was they were very smooth in use. On the static display they had I got to flick the switches and immediately like the positive feel - same goes for those on the stick.

Pendular Rudder Pedal: I found it very difficult to really assess these given the nature of their use at the time. They certainly feel very robust and I like the pedal spacing, also smooth to use. My impression from the static display was a concern the central position felt a bit too positive, my thoughts being they may be a little like the G940's where corrections around the central position may not be that smooth. The looks good and well made, however the biggest issue I have with them is price - £450, I could not personally justify this without glowing reviews and probably some decent hands on use for GA flying etc. Given the Crosswinds do appear to be so highly regarded and about £150 cheaper they are still most likely for me.

Blitzer
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Re: New Controllers

Post by Blitzer »

Oracle427 wrote:Those TM pedals look pretty good. I'd consider them if my Saitek unit fails. I like the way the pedals are angled, their spacing, and their height above the base. Will have to review specs if available to understand travel limits and forces. I dislike light forces.
They felt quite "positive" and smooth in use to me, actually weighted quite well - the biggest issue for me though is the price. More comments in my post below. 8)

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Alan_A
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Re: New Controllers

Post by Alan_A »

Hadn't realized you'd tried the Pendular Rudder. I'm interested in them for the spacing, and also because the pedal arrangement will allow the heel-on-floor, toe-on-pedal technique that Dudley's been advocating - that's hard to do with most of the other pedals (including the Crosswinds) because of the heel rests (IIRC, Vince/dvm modded his to deal with that limitation). Given the price, and the quality of the Crosswinds, I'll also wait to hear more before I really consider them.

About using the Warthog on your desktop - Sahaj offers a short (7.5 cm) extension that he recommends for desktop use. I've tried it, and it does improve the control feel without changing the ergonomics much. Another alternative is to try his replacement spring - the green one, that's designed for use without an extension. I don't have any experience with it but his engineering is good, and the price of admission isn't high so you can experiment. I once tried a homebrew spring mod that I found on a forum - it involved removing the center spring and replacing the four outer springs with a hardware-store alternative. I didn't much like the result - it made the stick feel sloppy without really improving the fine control - so I went back to stock.

If your space and desk allow it, you could always try mounting the stick and throttle on trays that sit below desk height. The best one - the Joy Loc - is sadly no longer available. There's one by Monstertech that's similar - though it's expensive and seems a bit over-engineered. Or, if you're handy, you can probably assemble something that serves the same purpose.

Not sure that any of these mounting options is practical for you. The main point is that there are some possibilities for easy mods if you find after some use that the Warthog feels too heavy for your taste.

One other manufacturer to consider is VKB Sim. I've never used one, but people seem to like them for their lighter feel and lack of a strong centering force. They seem to be having production problems at the moment - most of their line has been out of stock since the end of last year - so I don't know how well they're doing, or if/when they'll be fully back in business. Just something else to think about, as you're thinking about these things.

Again, hope at least some of this is helpful.
"Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

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dvm
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Re: New Controllers

Post by dvm »

Not to sound like a broken record but heels on the floor rudder pedal configuration is the standard for the majority of real world aircraft. If you own the crosswinds making a set of replacement pedals as I did is not difficult and makes a world of difference. If you already have $375. invested in a set of crosswinds it is the way to go because I doubt if you are going to find any pedals that will out perform the Crosswinds as far as resolution and feel. I learned to fly in the real world before I started messing with simulation so I bring some prejudices if you will into the discussion. In fact I find it hard to believe anyone who is into the hobby for any length of time is still flying with a joystick and throttle on the desktop. It belongs between your legs and the throttle on your left (a yoke is a different discussion). You don't have to build an elaborated sim pit to have this configuration. Controls plopped on the desktop is for the birds literally and not very immersive as far as I am concerned. One last thought on sim flying for all you GA aircraft fans if you have not flown in the real world you are in for a big surprise when you get behind the controls for the first time of the real deal. My last comment should start some S***. :lol:

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Alan_A
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Re: New Controllers

Post by Alan_A »

No argument from me on any of those points. I'm not a pilot but have spent some time in GA, including some stick time, and yes, it's pretty radically different.

Also didn't mean to suggest that heels-on-floor was Dudley's personal thing - I realize it's the accepted best practice, it's just that Dudley has been such a strong advocate for it here that I wanted to give him a nod.

About controller setups and placements - all true, but the limiting factor for a lot of people is lack of space, or lack of a dedicated flightsim machine, or both. For the longest time, my flightsim computer was also my work computer, so a yoke wasn't really a practical option - I needed the keyboard front-and-center for keyboard stuff. Even with a dedicated PC, it can be like solving a puzzle - right now I'm trying to figure out how a center-positioned, floor-mounted stick can work together with a yoke - it's hard to get the heights right without having them run into each other.

The other day I was reading an old thread on a pilots' forum about yoke vs. stick, and there were arguments for both but also the point made by some that you can go back and forth between them, and also switch between left hand and right hand (as you switch seats), and basically make the adjustment.

My sim flying did get a lot better when I discovered the Joy Loc trays and was able to move the HOTAS from the desktop to pretty much chair level - helped a lot with immersion and controllability, too.
"Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

BrettT
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Re: New Controllers

Post by BrettT »

Even with a dedicated PC, it can be like solving a puzzle - right now I'm trying to figure out how a center-positioned, floor-mounted stick can work together with a yoke - it's hard to get the heights right without having them run into each other.
Hi Alan,

I made my center stick removable by building a box receptacle then attached my center stick to the top of the insert portion which slides into the receptacle. It is made to be a little snug and is held in place with a toggle pin. I create some positive pressure on the pin with some compressible foam at the bottom of the receptacle. So in order to remove the stick all I do is pull the pin and pull out the stick. I rarely remove it but I made it that way in order to easily remove it in case I wanted to add my ECCI steering wheel which wouldn't be much different than a yoke. I don't think it is practical to have them both in place at the same time but making it so that they are easily removable is the key. Good luck!

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Alan_A
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Re: New Controllers

Post by Alan_A »

BrettT -

I'd gotten myself part of the way there - was starting to think in terms of some kind of box mount, but not yet with any specifics. If you're ever able to share photos and/or plans, please do. No rush - this isn't going to be a next-week or this-month project. Thanks in advance!
"Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

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dvm
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Re: New Controllers

Post by dvm »

Point taken Alan everyone does not have the room to have a dedicated set up. I am lucky as I have study, hobby room all to myself. I have a small computer desk and a car seat for my setup that uses minimal room. One has to make compromises of course. I am retired and do not have a bunch of kids to accommodate etc. As far as mounting your controllers. I have adjustable fixtures attached to my seat frame for my stick and throttle/console. I can weld so that is an asset. I have a bigger platform that I can put in the place of my joystick platform for use with a yoke. But I am stuck with a left hand throttle as changing the throttle position is not very doable because of all the cabling to the throttle/console. Flying with a left hand throttle and a yoke is what you must do when flying the right seat in most aircraft anyway. I realize everyone does not have the skill, interest or the time to make a set up like mine. But compared to guys like Raceguy I am a hack. I do think making a set of new pedals for the Crosswinds is doable for most folks. Just cut out some new pedals with a saw, smooth the edges and drill some mounting holes in the right place. I used a piece of laminate flooring so you don't even have to finish the surface as the back side of the flooring is smooth. I finished it with some spray on truck bed paint so it has non skid properties. I do apologize if I sounded to judgmental. Flight simming should be fun not work. If I had a Brunner FFB yoke and pedals I would probably be using a yoke instead of my G940 and FSforce software. I am too frugal to ever spend that much money on FS hardware. It would be cheaper to put a new S&S motor in my Harley. :D

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Blitzer
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Re: New Controllers

Post by Blitzer »

Thanks for all the replies and comments, good to hear and read all the POV's experiences etc.

With regards to room and layout my desk is not ideal to be honest as it is one of those intended to be used in a corner. It's a decent sturdy desk and there is not budget for even considering replacing it. The downside is the desk itself really only lends itself to the stick and throttle being placed on the desk and because my chair is effectively at 45 degrees to the desk it is also against the PC tower.

The Thrustmaster set-up I tried was all mounted rather nicely in a dedicated RSeat gaming frame/chair, if funds were available this would be something I would consider, but is low priority!

On a slightly different topic it is a surprise Thrustmaster do not actually produce their own Yoke, I think it would be a popular item in their line-up.

Time is getting real tight with respect to the discount available so I am going to need to make a decision in the next day or so - it seems a good offer to pass on, but at the same time I have other expenses to consider as well - we shall see! :?

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Alan_A
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Re: New Controllers

Post by Alan_A »

@dvm - no worries, Vince - agree it should be fun and part of the fun is figuring this stuff out. I don't have nearly your fabrication skills - and being an apartment-dweller, I don't have access to a shop (though I get along with the maintenance guys - maybe we could work something out). But I'm interested in your pedal mod and also in your joystick mount - both of them give me stuff to think about and there might be some way for me to hack out a similar solution.

I have to say also that I envy people like Daryl (killratio) or Raceguy who can commit to a full simpit. But that also means committing to one aircraft type, and I can never manage to settle down.

@Blitzer - your challenges sound like mine. I've got a little more space now - enough for two desks in a converted bedroom - but it wasn't always that way.

In all, I think you'll do well with the Warthog - maybe with some mods, but you can experiment with them later (none of them are all that expensive).

One other option I should have mentioned is the CH joysticks - Combatstick and Fighterstick. They're very precise and feel lighter than the Warthog. The question there is whether you like the plastic construction or not. The Warthog certainly feels more like pro hardware. But IIRC, Dudley has had good things to say about CH.

This SimHQ Warthog review - including comparisons - might be helpful. It's not new but should still be current.

Good luck with the final choice and let us know where you come out.
"Ah, Paula, they are firing at me!" -- Saint-Exupery

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