Starfighter!

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bigjuicyspider
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by bigjuicyspider »

Might want to re-visit the full text of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. He never said faster-than-light speeds weren't possible. His theory was that as you approached the speed of light, the amount of energy required to accelerate a mass increased exponentially to near infinity. As a Muon Neutrino particle has no real mass, then the energy required is not as nearly infinite. Additionally, as was postulated in the Star Trek series, the secret to FTL travel may lie in making "normal" space think that what you are accelerating has no mass, thus allowing you to use a much more reasonable level of energy to make that acceleration.

BTW, a "theory" is subject to being wrong.
You guys crack me up
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pjc747
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by pjc747 »

bigjuicyspider wrote:
Might want to re-visit the full text of Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity. He never said faster-than-light speeds weren't possible. His theory was that as you approached the speed of light, the amount of energy required to accelerate a mass increased exponentially to near infinity. As a Muon Neutrino particle has no real mass, then the energy required is not as nearly infinite. Additionally, as was postulated in the Star Trek series, the secret to FTL travel may lie in making "normal" space think that what you are accelerating has no mass, thus allowing you to use a much more reasonable level of energy to make that acceleration.

BTW, a "theory" is subject to being wrong.
You guys &*$(% crack me up
Wow. bigjuicyspider, that was deep. :shock:

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bigjuicyspider
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by bigjuicyspider »

Notice I "cleansed" my post mere milliseconds before you quoted me, but I like the original version better, don't you?? :) :) :)
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MAGGIEMAE
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by MAGGIEMAE »

Times up REMOVED :mrgreen: Some 104 pictures from my family history :wink:
Last edited by MAGGIEMAE on 26 Sep 2011, 12:59, edited 1 time in total.
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bigjuicyspider
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by bigjuicyspider »

I'm afraid to click on that link....
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seaniam81
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by seaniam81 »

MAGGIEMAE wrote:http://gallery.me.com/joannekidd/100404 :mrgreen: Some 104 pictures from my family history :wink:
Nothing but p0rn for the starfighter fan. There are some smexy pictures there Maggiemae.

pjc747
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by pjc747 »

I made this little guy (1/48) when I was 7, and its the only model that hasn't followed Newton's theory yet...

I've been eager to get to fly one in the sim for so long...longer than anythign else...

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I opted for the nosewheel doors to have had a slight failure causing them to come in too much...

trucker17
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by trucker17 »

The air museum Planes of fame in Chino, Ca has a 104G....She is unrestored now, but is on the list for restoration in the future...One day i hope to see her not only on the flight line, but in the air as well....
She is very impresive now the way she sits...I can only imagine her once again in the air...
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r4y30n
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by r4y30n »

pjc747 wrote: The Concorde X has nice vapor on its wings, it just kinda floats there though...
Ah, but that's just my point! There are a couple of planes that simulate the effect but many are just a simple on-off effect with a fade between the two. It seems to me that the size and shape of the vapor across the wings/fuselage is dependent on aircraft speed and angle of attack and I get the impression that most sims only take into account the latter part of the equation with the end result being that the vapor only looks accurate under specific conditions, if at all.

And in the case of the VRS F-18 it kinda looks like sheets of fabric across the wings and leading edge extensions. I remember reading on their forums that it was done differently than other companies' attempts for some functional reason, I think it had to do with reducing computer lag from the fancy effects, but still, I wonder if it would be possible to give the wing vapor on the upcoming F-104 (and the following F-4) the smooth, volumetric, cloud-like fogginess you often see in real life generated on the fly as a function of speed and alpha. Actually, it just occurs to me that perhaps the 3D lights code A2A invented could possibly work rather well for that effect...

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Sundowner
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by Sundowner »

The thing is - FSX developers are limited pretty much to the same techniques that were available since FS2002. There is no volumetrics, very limited particle effects, almost no real lighting. Every interesting effect you see is trickery - just take a look at propellers in current A2A aircrafts. ROB or Michal could be pushed to recreate vapor, afterburner, or parachute effects, more realistic than ever, but... it will cost time, a LOT of it. Based on my limited experience in modeling for FSX - working on those effects alone would take as much time, as making a new aircraft from scratch.
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"I give that landing a 7 on the Richter scale."

r4y30n
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by r4y30n »

Yes, but the trickery is pretty brilliant. The props you mentioned are something I certainly wouldn't have thought possible after looking at the stock aircraft props; maybe there's a little magic left for some jet fighter special effects!
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Sundowner
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by Sundowner »

From what I know, the props took a lot of time to get to the point they are in the Spitfire. Now, I do believe Scott could do some magic particle effects to represent the vapors in low pressure areas over/under airframe, but as I wrote, there are trade-offs to be made - one is development time, the second is fps-drop. more effects, more animated objects - the fps are going down.

All I'm really saying is - what will be made is up to the development team, we know what it will take to make those, and we shouldn't be disappointed if we don't get what we would hope for in the end. After all, this is only eye-candy.
Chris Oleksy
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"I give that landing a 7 on the Richter scale."

BalootheBear
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by BalootheBear »

I don't know when the first instance of the F-104 and the F-15 engaging in DACT happened...but I do know when it happened early on at Luke.

When the F-15 training operation began at Luke in the latter 70s, the initial squadron was the 555th, known as 'the Nickle'. Sometime in 78 or so, the Nickle guys were looking for DACT with a variety of fighter types, and so they came down the street to the F-104 Fighter Weapons School in the 69TFTS, also at Luke.

They wanted to fly against us, and so we agreed to put up a two ship for a trial mission. Two FWS instructors were selected, one a German instructor (Hartmut Troehler) and one USAF instructor (me).

The Nickle hosted the mission. We briefed at their squadron with two of their instructors (both F-4 FWS grads). They were going to use the two seat model for the engagement. We would both have dedicated GCI. We were to simulate Floggers...not a bad idea since the G model that we flew was a good representation of the A2A capability of the MiG-23. Our simulated armament was to be Apex, Aphid, and the gun.

After the main briefing, Hartmut and I had our own briefing. I was the flight lead and intended to use as much deception as I could. We knew that the F-15 guys were really proud of their radar capabilities...the PD radar was new to the fighter community at that time. I thought that the two Nickle guys would be heavily relying on their radar to enter the fight...as it turned out, I was right.

My plan was to put Hartmut in close formation and run head on at the F-15 using GCI for vectoring. Our radar could search out to 40nm but we couldn't lock on until 20nm.

We took the first GCI vector and accelerated through the mach. Intended to fight fast...high speed extensions and hook turns. At 20nm, the F-15 made a large blip on my radar and I was able to get a lock. The plan was to Fox-1 at about 16nm and then have Hartmut peel off into a hard 360 to follow me.

I called the Apex at 16nm, told Hartmut to deploy, and then pushed it up to over 700KIAS. My hope was that the Eagle guys would hold their lock on me and not see Hartmut separate. We could slave our gunsight to the radar lock on angle...this let me fly right at the F-15. I picked him up visually...he was high, to the right, and had started a conversion turn. I unloaded, and extended away figuring they would try to follow...and they did.

What that did, of course, was get them sandwiched between me and Hartmut. My guess was that they would get all excited and jump on me without asking where my wingman was. They found out soon enough as their GCI relayed to them Hartmut's gun attack call.

I was looking back and saw their break turn that resulted. I went idle and boards, slowed to .85M, dropped my maneuver flaps, put my lift vector on the Eagle and then pulled the jet into a hard 7g turn using burner to hold my speed. I knew I could sustain that g at around 400KIAS.

I pulled into a lead snapshot position on the Eagle, closed in and went guns. The Eagle broke again as their GCI relayed the second gun call.

By this time, Hartmut was pitching back into the fight. He saw me extend away, went in for his second gun attack, and then extended away after me. I tallyed him, gave him a check turn to put us back into line abreast and then we became a dot.

The Eagle tried to call a Fox-2 as we separated but with us well over 700KIAS, it was way out of parameters.

The result was the two Fox-1s and three unobserved gun kills by us. They had no valid shots.

The debriefing was a hoot. I especially liked the part where the Nickle guy played his recorder and we heard the backseater say "Break, we just got gunned again"!

Of course, all of this should not have happened. The F-15 should have had us for lunch. But they didn't, and it was all because they didn't play to their strengths...and they severely underestimated their opponents. They didn't do that again and that was a good thing.
Source:http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost ... tcount=280

My father flew the F84 and the 104.

They had a higher accident rate with the F 84 back in the days. And the 104 was an excellent bombing plattform. And the first hand account posted above is more than eyeopening. And with taht high speeds the 104 operated, many aircraft of that time couldn´t match up at this speeds. Even a F 22 becomes only a fast mover when maneuvering at very high speeds....

Just wanted to mention that. No offense at all and I am looking forward to the A2A F104..... :lol:

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thunderstreak
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Re: Starfighter!

Post by thunderstreak »

I too am really looking forward to the release of A2A's 104!

I can relate an F-104 story I overheard from my childhood.
My father flew the F-84G and F-84F in the Netherlands Air Force.
His best friend flew the F-86K and later the F-104G
Sitting in his friend's house in Maastricht they were chatting about memorable moments in the Air Force.
My father was talking about practice missions flown across western Europe in cooperation with other country's armed forces.
They were high speed, low altitude toss bombing (L.A.B.S) missions carrying a practice Mk.7 nuclear bomb.
Considering Europe's geographic limits the missions were roughly an hour in duration.
Flying at 600 kts on the deck for an hour was hard work.
His friend chimes in and says, "We flew those same missions in the 104, roughly 6 minutes each way at Mach 2!"

I can't wait to try that myself!
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