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 Post subject: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:43 am 
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Posts: 22
Afternoon all

As a perennial "IL2" newbie (Which is to say I've been enjoying it for years but never get any better at it) I've only just discovered "Wings of Victory", having heard a rash of good things about it all of a sudden and further lured by the outrageously friendly price on Amazon.

When I say "just discovered" I mean it, in fact I installed "Wov" this lunchtime! :D

My first impression is that it's a fair bit more technical than my "IL2" and I've already fallen foul of a certain overconfidence, which saw me taking it for granted that taking off at least was pretty much a given! Erm.... nope. Three face plants later and I finally got off the ground.

"Well that was quick enough" says the instructor, doubtless smoothing his handlebar mustache. "But scruffy...very scruffy." Well that's not very instructive is it! Perhaps he'll narrow it down a little for me in future attempts.

"WoV" represents something of a return home for me actually. My first "serious" flight sim was "Their Finest Hour" on my "Amiga" (truly in those days, never did so many owe so much, to so few Badgers) and a glance at the list of Rowan releases is like a who's who of my flight sim schooling. :D

Anyway.. I do come armed with a question (just in case you were starting to wonder) and it's this.. Jumping recklessly ahead of basic training, I decided to give the "Turkey Shoot" a try and for instructional reference I started the camera rolling to record my Ace like attempt.

But on playing it back I've found that I have explosions and gunfire pouring out of my speakers, but no engine sounds. It's like a dogfight with Marcel Marceau! Can this be right?

thanks all

Badger


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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:51 pm 
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BDG
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Location: Nantwich, Cheshire, UK
'Fraid so Badger - Replay is buggy and the lack of engine sounds (except for a close flypast by another aircraft) is not the least of it; you'll also find your target disappearing and your aircraft apparently shooting at empty sky! It's been a source of much frustration to quite a few people.

It's on his, very long, to-do list and Buddye has been looking at the code but I'm not sure he's been able to make much sense of it and he's quite rightly prioritized issues which directly affect the gameplay.

Welcome to the community, by the way. I 'm sure you'll find BoB needs some time to get to grips with but will repay the effort. I would suggest reading the manual in the DOCS folder and browsing the forum via the Search facility to learn more about the bits you're currently working on.

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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Posts: 22
Thanks for the reply Barry

Not a problem then. Replay facility would be nice, but certainly not a high priority and can quite happily live without it. "IL2" after all has an excellent replay setup if I fancy flexing my inner Spielburg. :D

After a brief look at the novice settings I've decided to up my game and set "WoV" on complex engine management. It seems to me I have plenty of opportunity for "yank n' bank" elsewhere and I think here I'd like to start as I mean to go on and learn to fly these kites properly.

Of course this has just resulted in a session where I just sat staring at a propeller which stopped spinning every time I let go of the starter button (on the Spit) but hey, that's better than my last session where I couldn't get it to move at all! :lol:

I suspect that either I'm doing the priming wrong (with out knowing what the outside temp actually is, I just played safe and pumped it four times) or I'm failing because I can't find a separate ignition switch... unless that is the magnetos. (Not that the start up sequence mentions the magnetos.)

Also I'm guessing that the "Airscrew Pitch Control" is the prop pitch lever, which I found. Although what "exercise the airscrew pitch control" means, is a good question. Whack it up and down a bit I guess. :D

I did wonder if the startup and takeoff checklists are actually taken from the authentic versions that the pilots would have used. As such I guess that not everything on them is pertinent to the sim?

Badger


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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:10 pm 
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Hi Badger,
I'm new enough to the game myself to remember my own learning difficulties.

Rightly or wrongly this is the way I do it and it works for me.

Firstly I have the mouse in my left hand(X&Y set for views) with the scroll wheel controlling prop pitch. Joystick in right hand for everything else. Left hand mouse took me a week of practice but now it's even more natural than the right.
I had skill levels set to veteran and that worked from the outset.

To start set throttle to 15% open.

Prop pitch fully fine(all the way back)

Fuel on, both mags on. For speed right click in and out of VC to hit buttons either side especially the Hurri.

2 pumps on the primer and as you hit the start button offset the torque with a bit of right rudder and aileron.
Release brakes, ease pitch fully forward while controlling aileron and rudder.

Ease in throttle to 95% also controlling rudder and aileron.

Tail lifts at about 55mph and torque decreases.

I hold her down and don't unstick until about 95mph

The reason is that a higher takeoff speed gives you more manouverabilty very early, important for ground attack exercises.

Once airborne I leave the throttle at 95% and use the pitch control to adjust speed in battle.

The most important instrument is airspeed, watch it like a hawk, it takes practice to understand prop pitch but basically course gives you more grip up to the point where it begins to slow you down. You can use fine pitch in a dive to also slow you down.

You haven't asked for landing but i assume you'd like to do that.
First find the field(radio if you can't see it.)

Having ascertained the wind direction, fly abeam the field on the reciprocal heading.( my maths is poor so I add or subtract 200 and then apply the other 20)

Watch your compass as you turn onto the wind heading and you should then see the field in front of you.Keep an eye on altitude, I use a target altitude of 500' and descend from that. (flat turns can be difficult at first and remember that with a plane on its side, the rudder performs the function of elevator.)
The main problem I had with landing was judging the distance. Initially,it's better to make a longer approach and keep nudging the throttle to keep it flying.
After a while you'll be able to turn and drop it in from inside the airfield boundary.

Prop pitch fully course( more grip to accelerate should you need to.)

Open canopy( This game is so good that the open canopy actually slows you down ! You may wish to leave it closed on takeoff for increased speed)

Throttle back, speed drops to 140, flaps down and gear down. Target touchdown speed is about 80.
Small throttle increases just to ensure that you don't drop too low.

As wheels touch the deck and you're certain that you'll stay down, pitch to fully fine to help with the braking. 50mph and you can start stabbing the wheel brakes to bring you to a stop.( With pitch fully forward until touchdown you have the grip to accellerate and go around again.)

The Spit is more slippery than the Hurri and you may find that on approach your airspeed is too high to get flaps and gear down. If you don't want to do a go round you can waggle the rudder to scrub off some speed. This is why I find 500' to be the maximum height as I start my approach, any higher and the glidepath is too steep and you'll come in too hot and high.

If you train at Tangmere you can taxi to the pub for a couple of well earned pints( Tea from the wagon at Kenley just doesn't cut it.)

Here's my flying, so if you think it's rubbish you can ignore all i've just said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo9kFCYPH8E

Happy flying and remember a good landing is one you walk away from.

_________________
POTR
"Only birds and fools fly and even the birds don't fly at night"
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Last edited by Phantom of the Ruhr on Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:39 am 
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BDG
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Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 7914
Location: Oahu, Hawai'i
Barry,

Phantom-o-t-Ruhr is a better pilot than I am, and a better movie maker!

Here is what I do, somewhat simple steps, as I know the BobII sim:
I confess that I stink at Spitfire Take Offs! She is a hard one to whip off the ground. However..
For the Spitre take off, I think this what you do, engine off:

1. Open canopy
2. Flaps Up. (they are that way at default start)
3. Set Propeller Pitch fully fine.
4. Set Rudder Trim for neutral rudder trim. (neutral at default start)
5. Set Throttle to about 20% up from 0 throttle position.
6. Open both Fuel Cocks. (toggle switches up)
7. Turn on both Magneto Switches. (toggle switches up)
8. Pump the Fuel Primer about 5 times.

9. Press the Starter switch.
(if the engine starts OK but dies, then maybe the throttle is not open far enough, or not enough fuel was primed before start. Try again.)

Now comes the hard parts for the Spitfire....

10. Release the brakes.
11. Very slowly accelerate using the Throttle,
whilst using slight Rudder and slight Ailerons to keep the aircraft straight, without dropping a wing on the ground.
The Spitfire I wants to veer left on take off. I find both a slight bit of right rudder, and slight right aileron stick action
will keep her straighter down the field.
I must empathize SLIGHT, or she will surely Rock & Roll! The Spitfire is the hardest one to take off with!

-----------------------------------------

One Spitfire manual advises this, and I quote:

T - Trimming tabs

Elevator: About one nose division down from nuetral
[(stickman thinks this will help the tail lift off the ground soon on take off. Put it back up.. when in the air)]
Rudder: Fully to st'bd. [(stickman tried this, and for BoBII, prefers a neutral position, but I am a poor pilot!)]

-----------------------------------------

12. Increase throttle slowly, more and more speed, until you lift off the ground, then go full throttle.
(To better see the Spitfire's Take Off, I suggest that you go to external view, when trying this difficulty, at first.)
13. Raise the Landing Gear.
14. Close the canopy.
15. Adjust rudder trim hard over for right trim, while climbing, and using fine prop pitch.
Later.. when you set prop pitch for a coarser setting, for cruise, you will need to readjust the rudder trim to the left.

_________________
"Life is too short to ride a sorry horse!" my uncle B. Kennedy, Greybull, Wyoming, USA


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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:26 pm
Posts: 277
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Flattery will get you everywhere!

If I am a good pilot Mr Stickman it's because you, Buddye and the other BDG guys taught me through this forum.

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POTR
"Only birds and fools fly and even the birds don't fly at night"
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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:33 am 
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BDG
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Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:07 pm
Posts: 929
Location: Nantwich, Cheshire, UK
Badger, have a look at this thread: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15371

There's a link to a YouTube video of the startup procedure for a real Spit, albeit a later mark.

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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:39 am 
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Airman
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:31 am
Posts: 22
Excellent replies chaps, many thanks for all your effort.

Thanks to your collective wisdom the Badger is up in the air from "cold & dark" and here's a little proof of the fruits of your labours. (At least I hope so..depending on whether I have remembered how to send a picture. :D )

Image
I actually found that video last night Barry, when I was searching on Googlevids to see if anyone had done a takeoff and landing walk through. Satisfying to hear them using terms I was also reading here. I also found this one which was quite handy;
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/take- ... le-of/7306
But it didn't all come together until I read all your new posts this morning, tried again and "chocks away!" :D

Speaking of videos... very nicely done Phantom! All I can say is, that's some pretty impressive flying and shooting there fella! Great tips too, though I think I'm going to need a strong cup of coffee before I can tackle terms like "reciprocal heading". :lol:

Brilliant fifteen point list Stickman! A combination of yours and Phantoms really turned the tide this morning.

It's great to see my luck with choosing the right forums continues. Nature can be cruel and in my case she gave me a great love for all things sim, but then didn't give me the smarts or the stick skills to make the best of em! :lol: But I seem to make up for it in an ability to pick the forums where all the friendliest people are. :D

Thanks again

Badger


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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:23 am 
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BDG
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:06 pm
Posts: 1791
:) Well done ,regarding replays you may be better using something like Fraps,the in game video replay is really broken.


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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:51 pm 
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BDG
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Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 7914
Location: Oahu, Hawai'i
Badger,

If you are like me, and prefer to manipulate the Engine Controls using the keyboard rather than the mouse, you can set it up to do so.
The instructions on how to do it are in the BoBII Manual, which is in the docs folder.
See this section:

Image

For the ME109 and ME110C you need to edit a couple files in the models folder. Easy to do.

Here is a little key card I cooked up to remind me what I did when setting "Engine Control Keys" up. I use the ALT + 1, etc. keys.
Much easier to toggle panel switches and things this way. I never fly without "Engine Control Keys" !

Image

-----------

While we are talking about keys, a Finnish man and I made up some key guides you might find more useful and up to date than the stock ones.
The Main Keys one does not print well without some Print Setup fiddling, but I made them for printing.

You can find them here, at the stickman's modifications sticky topic, General Forum.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11652&start=90
Page 7.

Aloha!

_________________
"Life is too short to ride a sorry horse!" my uncle B. Kennedy, Greybull, Wyoming, USA


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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:09 am 
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Posts: 22
Thanks Stickman. I'll definitely be mapping some extra functions to keys. I'm all for the atmosphere of finding my way around a proper cockpit at takeoff where there's little or no pressure, but in flight (and particularly in combat) I can't be doing with having to take my eye off the ball like that. Prop Pitch has to be a main contender for that if I want to learn to use it properly I think. I see max and min are already mapped, as is a sliding up and down although it seems really slow.

I expect anyone who is the proud possessor of something like a Track IR devise (If I understand it's function correctly) would probably find it much easier to live in the cockpit proper, but we're fairly low tech here at Badger Towers (big shock right? :lol: ) and have to make do with a standard rodent (albeit shaped like a sportscar :) ) and a "Logitech Extreme 3D Pro" stick, which may or may not be ideal but I've always liked it and it's served me well.

I had a nice little feeling of achievement today, having made a dangerous takeoff as opposed to an insanely dangerous one and then crashing into an AA gun on my landing attempt. This might not sound like much of an achievement, but it represented the first time I've managed to find the airfield again after takeoff!

Unfortunately I am colour blind ( :lol: Can I not catch a single flight sim break here?! :lol: ) and I find the grass airfields in "WoV" incredibly difficult to tie down. (I don't think it can be easy even for the fully visioned.) But today I navigated back using the radio (although it seemed to me that it gave conflicting directions from one check to the next) and by spotting the hangers albeit with a degree of struggle.

I managed to get my speed down to 180mph, a feat which up to now I've been finding tricky without the advantage of "IL2" style air brakes (I'm sure once I'm at a stage where I can use Phantoms reciprocal heading's and flying abeam of airfields which I guess is all about landing into the wind, this'll be easier.) and lowered my flaps and gear.

For a brief moment there I thought I had it in the bag. The airfield was definitely ahead, I could see the big square hangers to the left. Sure I was a little low, but I was confident I'd make the field. Uh-oh..... that's a silly place to park a...... "Dear Mrs Badger. We regret to inform you that your husband died because he was stupid."

Anyway, point is that if that AA gun hadn't been there I feel like that might have been my first successful landing! I'm close I tells ya! :lol:

Badger


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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:34 am 
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Hi again Brock!
I like your writing style.

Ok landing. Forget the big words like reciprocal and let's go back to basics.

Positioning for approach and your relationship to the airfield seem to be prob. Disorientation was mine also.

Select a field with a nice long runway,how about Tangmere. You need to provide yourself with a series of visual ref points so Tangmere has em all.

To position yourself at exactly the right place to make an approach, here's how we do it.

Firstly the aircraft have azimuth compasses(the blue thing in the cockpit). They are easy to read because you look down and when you need a new heading it's easy to tell whether it's left right and by how much.

We can't read that blue thing. I have a box of discs on my desk( the round kind with the centre spindle) I mark the top disc with every 10 degrees of the compass. I turn my makeshift compass to the heading I'm on and when I need the new heading I can see easily the type of turn I need to make.


So in order to make a circuit and position for approach, the start point is the end of the runway at Tangmere. Just before you take off look at your compass and write down on a pad the heading of the runway, you may have to move a bit to make sure the plane is straight.

Whatever that heading is, add or subtract 180 to give you a figure less than 360(that is the reciprocal)The other way is to look at at your new work of art and read off the the opposite heading from the disc. So you have two headings written on your bit of paper.

What you do now is take off, fly straight for a bit and then turn left and fly an extended oval.

The reason is that if you fly that oval on compass headings and do the same rate of turn at each end of that oval you will put yourself on exactly the point in the air from which to start your approach.

So the first heading is the outbound takeoff heading then do a gentle left turn onto the second heading(the return or opposite heading) don't climb above 500'. and keep the speed down to about 160 remembering that at low speed a turn will reduce your speed further so compensate with throttle.

The plane wants to climb in the turns so offset that with rudder so that you don't climb above 500

You will see Tangmere go past on your left side, when adjacent the place on the runway that you started from, fly straight for about another minute and then use the same rate of turn as your first. Watching the compass as you turn onto the first heading which you wrote down on your piece of paper. as you come onto the first heading you will see the runway ahead and then follow the procedure on my previous post.

Your first successful landing is the hardest. Crack this and the rest is easy. If you get fed up, switch it off and try again the next day.
Sorry if you thought you were just going to jump into this game and become Sailor Malan.

What I'm about to say will have every real pilot jump down my throat within the next 30 seconds. A good simulator is harder than the real thing, HOLD ON GUYS wait for it......You have no instructor sat beside you guiding you every step of the way. You have to figure it out for yourself, that is the element which is harder. Obviously in every other respect the real thing outranks.

Now I'll let you in on a little secret. I run version 2.09 because it runs ok in a laptop. Why a laptop you ask ,surely it's better with a grunty machine. Yes it is.

If you're feeling a little lonely, trot into a bar with your laptop and joystick and start playing BOB. You won't be lonely for long. And you can even give your new friends flying lessons if you get my meaning.

If that doesn't encourage you to stick with it, I don't know what will :lol:

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POTR
"Only birds and fools fly and even the birds don't fly at night"
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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:03 am 
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Airman
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Posts: 22
Top man Phantom. PM en-route.

Badger


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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:19 am 
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BDG
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Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 6:06 pm
Posts: 1791
Badger wrote:

I managed to get my speed down to 180mph, a feat which up to now I've been finding tricky without the advantage of "IL2" style air brakes
Badger

:D There is quite a difference between the sim s and it will take time to get used to it.I found this sim is harder to land,the damage modelling is less forgiving here,once wrong bounce and you BOOM.Il2 seem to have a heavier feel,once the plane is down it stays down more rather than the lighter bounce of BoB.
I find that to reduce the speed,throttle back earlier,prop pitch into fine pitch, trim the nose up a bit and when your airspeed is low enough drop flaps and re trim the nose and drop the gear.
Maybe kicking the rudder to skid the speed off and opening the canopy will help. :)
I really must reload this sim.


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 Post subject: Re: Badgers Aloft
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:30 pm 
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BDG
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Posts: 7914
Location: Oahu, Hawai'i
Badger,

Quote:
Anyway, point is that if that AA gun hadn't been there I feel like that might have been my first successful landing! I'm close I tells ya! :lol:


I started a project to remove those AA guns that were place on the landing fields. The Bofors also tend to shoot each other if placed to closely together. :twisted:
This turned into a major AAA remake to replace the heavy and light guns at historical locations and with proper numbers of guns.
Remade all the south coast area from Manston to Southampton. Then Ben started remaking most all of the English airfields historically proper, and with new objects.
Again, he is removing all AA guns from airfields. He gave me some new AA site objects to use, so now I am remaking what I did before with better objects.
Also I am adding 40mm Bofors guns to all Radar Sites that had them.
Added in a lot of trees, farms, etc. around each AA site to look good without too much performance loss.

I think Ben will be done with his airfields before Christmas, then I will add whatever AAA work I have done to his work.

Quote:
I find the grass airfields in "WoV" incredibly difficult to tie down.


Control - F3 keys will give a target padlock which I call "Main Airfield Target". If you are landing, this is useful as long as you are near the field.
There is a range limit for this, less than 2 or 3 miles? Not sure exactly.
Turn on the "Target Padlock Diamond" which is Shift- T, and the diamond will be on the airfield usually at a point central and near the main hangars.

F3 is Next Ground Target.
Shift-F3 is nearest Ground Target.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tips:

A. Rudder and elevator trim. Only the ME110C has aileron trim.

Any player can adjust the sensitivity for these.
1. Open the models folder.
2. Open the Spitfire1A.ACM (for example) file. Use NotePad to do so. Go down and find this line:

Trim { 10923 0 4096 } # elevator aileron rudder

Lots of folk complain that the elevator trim is way too sensitive to trim easily. A little key press will give too much effect, that is. I am one of them.
If so for you, try a much lower value than 10923. 4096 or 1024 is suggested.

In all cases with this Trim line, a larger number will give more sensitivity (input = larger output effect)
while a smaller number will give less sensitivity (input = smaller output effect).

Also, for elevator trim, the Spitfire has a gauge that measures the trim setting. Left side of panel, there is a gauge with a horizontal pointer and an arc.
Just a few degrees of pointer movement on this gauge indicates a very large trim effect!

B. Prop pitch effects elevator trim.

Someone else can explain this better than me, but for example, if you are trimmed straight and level using coarse prop pitch for cruise,
then adjust the prop pitch fine for landing or whatever, the aircraft will start turning off trim. need to readjust elevator trim for this new prop pitch change.

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"Life is too short to ride a sorry horse!" my uncle B. Kennedy, Greybull, Wyoming, USA


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