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Hi everybody,

I tried some maneuvers with this beautiful bird and had a very unpleasant crash from about 10,000ft.

First let me say I recovered a couple Stalls already. With Stall I mean in this case slowing the aircraft down while keeping the nose up until the wings stall.

When I crashed however I don't quite know how you call that state of flight, but I can tell you how I got into it:

Being fast (not too fast but definetly not slow). Rolling to one side so that the wings are almost perpendicular to the ground. Now pulling kinda hard on the elevator. The P-40 starts spinnging like crazy and I can't recover it since all control-surfaces are useless.
With a normal Stall I would kick rudder into the opposite direction of spinning and when turning stops slowly pull up. That doesn't work here at all.

Can somebody tell me what exactly is happening here and how I can recover?


Greetings
Stefan

Sounds like an accelerated stall. I have put the P-40 ( and the Spit ) into many of them.

Recovery is pretty much just like any stall/spin. I do the recovery pretty much "automatically: but I
believe this is how I go about it:
Power off, stick neutral and apply rudder in opposite direction of the spin to stop the rotation,
then nose down to gain speed until you are out of the stall. Pull up gently so as not to re-enter the
accelerated stall condition.

It's a bit more complicated if you happen to get into an inverted spin but I have gotten out
of those as well without difficulty.

Paul

You are describing an accelerated stall. If yaw is present (any off centered ball) you have pro spin departure as the eminent result.
Once a P40 starts to spin, or any airplane for that matter, to recover you will need to come back to idle power, REDUCE ANGLE OF ATTACK with FORWARD STICK, and apply anti-spin rudder. These controls should stop the spin BUT NOT IMMEDIATELY. You have a great deal of spin inertia built up with a WW2 fighter in a spin and the rudder needs TIME to produce an anti-spin result. Just apply the controls as indicated and WAIT! The amount of turns required to stop the spin will vary depending on how deep you are in the spin. It could take SEVERAL TURNS to stop the rotation. Just hang in there and when the rotation stops don't haul back on the stick to recover. That could easily cause a secondary stall and spin. Judge what altitude you have left and USE IT to reduce the g load in your recovery.
If you have some air under you just make a smooth recovery. If altitude is critical, use it wisely. it is FAR better to have over speed than it is to have over G.
Dudley Henriques

One more thing to consider: Unless you need full fuel tanks for range, I'd recommend leaving your fuselage tank empty, or with just a few gallons for an emergency. With that tank behind the CG it makes recovering from a stall much more difficult if it is full. If you do need the extra fuel, then it is best to use the fuselage tank first (even before the drop tank) to get rid of any bad handling characteristics, and avoid maneuvers which could result in a stall.

Joe

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To add to the other answers, most fighters have a safety height for spins of around 9000-10000 ft. If you get into a spin below that you are always going to go close.
The "wait" part, as Dudley says, is critical. If you fiddle with the controls too much, you will undo any "anti-spin" good you have already done.

If the spin is very flat (compared to the horizon) you can also try rocking the aircraft with power and elevator input alternately, to try to get the nose to move far enough to drop out. I am not at all sure how wise this would be in a fighter with high torque though!! Dudley?

Paul...my standard spin recovery technique does not waste time trying to work out inverted or upright (in some cases the difference is VERY hard to pick, particularly when the spin nose attitude is extremely low) I have a golden rule "stand on the rudder on the side to which the ground is moving in the windscreen".

So if you are upright, an anti-clockwise spin (left) will make the ground seem to move to the right side of the windscreen..stand on the RIGHT (opposite) rudder.

If you are inverted an anti-clockwise spin (right) will make the ground rush to the left side of the windscreen. ...stand on the LEFT (opposite) rudder.

You can see that IF you are wrong about left/right or upright/inverted and you put in "appropriate" rudder for the wrong one, you are feeding in FULL pro-spin rudder!! This has killed more than a few pilots, most non aerobatic but some aerobatic as well. It is not so easy sometimes to tell quickly which way you are revolving. Many pilots NEVER experience anything more than an incipient spin, in which the spin dynamics are quite different and the recovery times MUCH quicker. Very few pilots experience a spin in anything OTHER THAN the direction they have intentionally spun the aircraft. A GOOD pilot will NEVER experience a fully developed spin in anything but the direction he has intended but he should certainly have the ability to recover from one.

It is easy to get into the mindset "stall, full right rudder, three turns, P.A.R(left).E" but in any accident/mishap/unintentional where you HAVEN'T picked the direction, how quickly COULD you identify and correct? Good EMT training puts the trainee (eyes closed to start with) into an incipient spin and then hands him control. I can tell you, that is a VERY different task to the "stall, full right rudder, three turns, P.A.R(left).E" trick! But in the majority of accidental spins, and to paraphrase a famous line "a spin is something that happens while you are planning other things"

regards

Darryl

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...Some say he never blinks, and that he roams around the woods at night foraging for Merlin parts...

Darryl, You bring up a good point. Most pilots don't see more then the incipient spin. I know when I was getting my PPL in '99 I had to demonstrate an incipient and recover, and that was it. Luckly my instructor decided to demonstrate a three rotation spin in a DA-20. Man those things can spin! Also included in the lesson, why you don't add power during a spin. And that was it for spin training. Since then I've only had to do incipient. My glider pilots training was a little different. We had to demonstrate a 3 rotation spin entered via cross control method.

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Interesting and informative post.

Spin recovery is something that gets REALLY neglected for the most part when it comes to general pilot training. For the most part, pilots have to seek out competent aerobatic instructors after they become certificated to get what I consider IMPERATIVE finishing of their training. Advanced stall recovery, upset training, spin training, and aerobatics are in my opinion a very important part of a pilots training and every pilot should seek out and get this "post graduate degree".
This being said, to address the subject of spins in prop fighters, torque won't be an issue in recovery as regardless of spin type and direction and recovery technique, power is the first thing you take out of the recovery equation. Power goes immediately to idle.
As to spin direction, as you so correctly stated, if inverted, spin direction is extremely difficult to determine. Roll is opposite to yaw when inverted and visual cues are extremely disorienting. One thing that helps, even in jet fighters. The Naval Test Pilot School at Pax River had for years a great spin recovery program going using the T2 Buckeye. ALL entries were flown including a vertical 3 axis coupled departure.
The very first thing taught was that the TURN NEEDLE on the T&B always shows the spin direction regardless whether erect or inverted. VERY handy information to have in your spin recovery kitbag.
On actual recoveries in prop fighters, the technique might differ due to the location of fuel tanks and fuel load that affects the cg and established spin inertia axis locations. The trick in these aircraft is to know the procedure for that specific aircraft as put forward by the test program.
On the flat spin situation; spins can go flat due to a cg location and with power in the spin equation. Take out the power and unless the cg is way out, a prop fighter shouldn't go flat. Pumping the stick could help in some cases and in fact is a recommended technique for breaking deep stall in the Viper. I've not encountered a situation in a prop fighter that would require it.
Beggs/Mueller and PARE techniques are both potentially viable and both should be thoroughly studied and considered in any spin training program but it's prudent to recognize that every aircraft is different and the Beggs/Mueller that will work wonderfully in a Pitts might not be the optimum technique for a P40.
PARE as a matter of fact, is a registered trademark of a friend of mine, Rich Stowell. Rich is one of the finest acro training instructors in the business and I highly recommend his books on the subject.
Dudley

Thanks Dudley,

I do indeed have Rich Stowell's books and some personal advice from him that has probably ensured I am still here.

I heartily agree about spin training. I would challenge the "authorities" to provide actual figures to back up their assertion that the risks of spin training outweigh the advantages.
I came, as I think I have told you privately, to do an aerobatics rating after a wind buffet nearly turned me upside down in a C172 at 4000ft. I got to wondering afterwards, WHAT exactly I would have done had I ended up upside down. Simple enough to say now..but back then I thought:

C172 accelerate quickly nose low and not much "grace" before VNE.

Poll forward and keep the nose away from the horizon whilst rolling..risking inverted stall, spin??

How much aileron, rudder?

Power on/off?

What is the roll rate, CoG effect in inverted flight and accerleration of a C172 with 4 POB and half fuel??

Will she stand a 3G pullout under those conditions, will 3g be enough to avoid VNE??

etc etc etc.

Luckily I did not have (nor would I ever want) to make those assessments/decisions that time..as the wings stopped short of 90deg and I was always a fan of steep turns anyhow.
Sadly, however, the accident records are full of pilots who did and who (along with their passengers) paid dearly for the "privilege". These pilots, by and large, were faced with these decisions and flight attitudes for the very first time whilst in the stress of a sudden and, by definition, unexpected event.

Full aerobatics training is always going to be for "the few". I am told that in Australia, only around 5% of pilots have a rating and use it. However, I feel that EMT should be compulsory.
In fact there are holes in the system even then. I was, years ago, awarded my Aerobatics Rating in every manoeuvre that a utility class aerobatic aeroplane would do and yet, at the time I had NEVER performed a spin of any more than 3 turns including recovery...which is to say that I had never performed a SPIN! But it says it, right there in my logbook!! That shows a fundamental misunderstanding (in the system) as to exactly what a spin IS.

Dismounting soapbox

My lazy brain defaults to out the window, probably because, after years of sim flying, I was chastised often, for sticking my head "in the cockpit". The T&B is an essential instrument and it is vital to understand the display (as some are quite different in form, if not function) of the particular aircraft de jour.

You mention the Viper which is an interesting case. Deep Stall (and I haven't flown one in anything but the full sized simulator) is an uncomfortable event. You have to throw and hold the rail guarded, momentary, MPO (Manual Pitch Override) switch with the left hand and rock with the right on a stick that barely moves. If you forget the MPO, the Flight Control System will not let you feed in enough up/down to break teh cycle..the limiters prevent it. Of course you now have no hand to use the throttle and even if you did, spool time would make things very difficult to judge.


I've tried Beggs Mueller but, as you say, it is somewhat aircraft specific and seems to work best in "modern" purpose built aerobatic aircraft. I also take no small comfort in (credit for?? ) actually doing something to recover the spin .

cheers

Darryl

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...Some say he never blinks, and that he roams around the woods at night foraging for Merlin parts...

On that 172 "situation"; The first thing I taught a beginning upset training student was that if caught in a situation where they found themselves inverted, the procedure was to unload the aircraft and ROLL to the nearest horizon. The natural tendency for an untrained pilot is to pull down which is exactly the wrong thing to do. From cruise, a Split S will almost invariably result in a Vne and/or a serious positive over G. Even considering the lousy roll rates on light GA airplanes, ROLLING to the nearest horizon is the way to go every time.
I'm sure you got the same training in your akro program over there.

Dudley

Dudley,

Yes, that is exactly the teaching here for normal GA aircraft and "utility" type aerobatic aircraft. In high performance aerobatic aircraft I was taught to "pull toward the horizon and roll out". In GA of course the potential for asymetric G being applied if you try that is too great. The time required to rollout AFTER reaching the horizon, if starting from any sort of inverted attitude, can take you close to VNE and so there is a tendancy to rush the roll AS you head for the horizon with back pressure. Not good! In a 260-300 deg per second Extra rated at +12-13g, that is not usually an issue.

Many hours in an Aerobat C152 taught me (and Rich certainly confirmed my feelings!!) that aerobatics in "strengthened" GA aircraft are fun and exciting and more than little bit dangerous...They are perfectly safe when done flawelessly but the margins for error are small and the margins for recovery before VNE, G loading exceed, loss of control effectiveness due to "shading" etc etc are just TOO small. Ending up inverted, pointing at the ground with the throttle wide open gives one very little time to assess, react and recover in a light GA!


cheers

Darryl

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...Some say he never blinks, and that he roams around the woods at night foraging for Merlin parts...

We have a saying here in the states in our akro community among our akro instructors;
"Doing good akro in an Extra can make you a good pilot. Doing good akro in a Cessna Aerobat can make you a living legend" ))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Dudley

OR a non-living one





I watched a "streamer cutting competition" once using C152's...TOO rich for MY blood!!

Darryl

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...Some say he never blinks, and that he roams around the woods at night foraging for Merlin parts...

Hello everybody,

first of all thanks for your answeres, very interesting material right there!

I tried it again and if I react immediatly it works great. But I wanted to get into it deep to get proficient with it so I provoked this situation at 10,000ft and after it started stalling I didn't react immediatly but holded the controls in the position I had them for just a little bit longer. I was spinning really nice now, so I applied full rudder and let go of everything else and waited. After 5,0000ft altitude loss, nothing happened so I waited longer. I guess my virtual me is still waiting in the afterlife because that ground wasn't very forgiving.

Can I get so deep into it that there is no recovery? I also tried it with pumping the stick but the result was the same.

I can try to make a video of it to make it clear if needed.

Greetings and thanks in advance

Stefan


EDIT: Oh well, I found the answere to all my problems, for some reason the autorudder was turned on (really great having rudder pedals and forgetting to turn that off after reinstall). Now that it is turned off it workes like a charm.

Thanks for your help

Just a little added comment;
The P40 was never known for its positive spin behavior. The general word from Curtis Wright back then was to NOT spin the 40. I actually had a friend (Herb Fisher) who did much of the flight tests on the P40 as a CW test pilot. Herb commented several times about the trouble a pilot could get into spinning a 40.
The A2A flight modeling is pretty good on these prop fighters. A lot of work went into getting things as close to actual as technology would allow.
With this in mind, I would suggest that spin recovery is best attempted in the incipient stage and 10K feet is marginal altitude for any spin recovery attempted in a P40 once the spin axis is established say after 4 or 5 turns.
Just a sim tip here, but using a controller in a simulator, you might not get optimum result from "letting go of the stick" as that relates to angle of attack reduction. In spin recovery, no matter how it's done, angle of attack HAS to be recovered in a spin recovery. In the sim situation, you might not be reducing the angle of attack enough by letting go of the controller to effect recovery. I would suggest you physically
place the controller forward enough to insure that you are getting angle of attack recovery when recovering from spins in the simulator if letting go of the controller isn't working well for you.
Dudley Henriques

When I first got the P-40 I explored the spin characteristics and found recovery with full fuselage tank very unlikely (for me at least)
For me the solution is to avoid it with a full fuselage tank, be ready to ease off quickly when you first sense the accelerated stall approaching.
You really have to mind your manners in vertical maneuvers since you can only ease off so much.
If I were sitting on point defense alert I wouldn't want any fuel in the rear tank.

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