Getting airborne in a P51

[Ron Attwood]

I've had the military version for about a week now and I'm getting to know where the bits and pieces are located. Taking off has been, and continues to be, a steep learning curve! Like the guy who posted in the 'Mustang Flying tips' thread, I have difficulties with trying to ride this untamed beast down the runway. It IS gradually coming together by the use of persuasion rather than brute force.
I wonder how 'freded' (the aforementioned poster) has got on with his Mustang.
I thought the P-47 was a challenging aircraft. It's a pussycat compared!

[DHenriques_]

I've had the military version for about a week now and I'm getting to know where the bits and pieces are located. Taking off has been, and continues to be, a steep learning curve! Like the guy who posted in the 'Mustang Flying tips' thread, I have difficulties with trying to ride this untamed beast down the runway. It IS gradually coming together by the use of persuasion rather than brute force.
I wonder how 'freded' (the aforementioned poster) has got on with his Mustang.
I thought the P-47 was a challenging aircraft. It's a pussycat compared!

The "trick" in handling a Mustang takeoff is in how you manage the throttle. The Jug has so much mass it tracks easier than a Mustang on takeoff so don't associate it's handling with the 51.
A very common problem with new 51 pilots is trying to get the power in quickly to save runway.
Don't do that. Modulate your power application SLOWLY on up to takeoff power. I've made takeoffs in the 51 where I actually broke ground almost at the same time I reached 55 inches.
SLOW power application is the word !
Dudley Henriques

[Ron Attwood]

Yes Dudley, I was gradually coming round to that conclusion. That's what I meant by persuasion. At least I'm on the right track.

[Chunk]

It's definitely a different beast than the Jug. Slow power application is absolutely key, and I also find that if I anticipate what the plane will do as the power increases, I can make rudder inputs before the plane gets ahead of me.

[Bomber_12th]

You see pilots flying them today using different techniques when it comes to power application on takeoff. Some of the old guys can really bring the power up quite quickly, and be right on top of it - probably so accustom to the feel/response of the aircraft. I know this is especially required by some of the Mustang pilots in England today, operating from some very short fields (like Old Warden, Little Gransden, Hardwick, Fowlmere, etc.). Others tend to bring the power up in stages - 30", 35", 40", 45", and then reaching 50" near to/about the time the aircraft has reached 110-120 mph and soon flying. Probably the most common is a gradual throttle input, continuing to increase the power until reaching full power at/about the same point the tail rises. The most common takeoff etiquette, in whichever case, is to power up to 30" MP while still holding the brakes, then release and let it start rolling before bringing the power up, being mindful to be ahead of the aircraft's responses as power is increased. Usually the sooner the tail comes up, the harder the aircraft will be to control, and it's usually advised to try and keep the tail from rising up too high, or too soon - I've seen a few of the very seasoned warbird pilots perform takeoffs in Mustangs today just like what they used to teach during WWII, and that is to keep the tail low, and takeoff in almost a three-point attitude, rather than allowing the tail to rise up too much.

I recall seeing a cockpit video from within the Collings Foundation's TP-51C on takeoff, which clearly showed the manifold pressure gauge and thus what the pilot was doing with the throttle throughout the takeoff, using stages of power throughout the takeoff run (starting at 30" MP, and inching up in increments up to about 50" MP, near/around the time the aircraft was near ready to fly). Then you have some other instances, like this video of Kermit Weeks, who has been flying Mustangs, regularly (sometimes daily), for 35 years now. It's really something to see how fast the MP needle climbs, while he's able to keep the aircraft heading straight ahead (perhaps the grass helps a bit in this case): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOXxUApaaWo

(Speaking of torque and p-factor, the Sea Fury is often described as being even more of a beast to handle on take-off than the Mustang and P-40 (you can easily run out rudder, trying to keep it centered, if you feed in too much power, too soon). With the short-tail P-40's, there used be a saying during WWII that you could spot a P-40 pilot from the rest, based on the size of his thighs, due to having to work the rudder so-much.)

At the Flying Legends airshows at Duxford, whenever they have formation Mustang takeoffs, the lead typically always uses 46" MP for takeoff, and it's plenty, just so that they never go blasting off too quickly/separating themselves - and of course that illustrates just how much excess power the Merlin can produce, when you can take it all the way up to 55" MP on today's fuel (and 61" MP originally, even without WEP (even more in mid 1944 and 1945, when 150 octane fuel was introduced)). In a similar manner, it has been typically preached to use 46" MP and 2700 RPM for full aerobatic displays, but I've read/seen several Mustang display pilots use more/less around 42" MP and 2500 RPM for full aerobatic displays (like the Horsemen). As long as you enter the display with enough airspeed and can manage that airspeed throughout the display, you can save the engine a bit by using less power.

[Ron Attwood]

...and that is to keep the tail low, and takeoff in almost a three-point attitude, rather than allowing the tail to rise up too much.

You've just provided an 'Ahah!'moment. I was actually trying to get the tail wheel off.

Thanks a lot, a very informative post.

[DHenriques_]

...and that is to keep the tail low, and takeoff in almost a three-point attitude, rather than allowing the tail to rise up too much.

You've just provided an 'Ahah!'moment. I was actually trying to get the tail wheel off.

Thanks a lot, a very informative post.

Correct procedure for the 51 is to "allow" the tail wheel to come up slightly and naturally as you progress through the takeoff run. You have to do this carefully but you SHOULD do it !.
There is a caveat however. You raise it too soon and you absolutely do have a strong possibility to lose control of the airplane due to the forces in play. Conversely if you hold the tail down there is a strong possibility of rotation into a situation that will absolutely kill you in a Mustang; that being minimum airspeed, high power, and increasing angle of attack.
As for the practice of 3 point takeoffs done by the military during the war years....a LOT has been learned and a LOT has changed since those early days of training. A lot of mistakes were made during those days and much better technique is now in play when flying these high performance propeller fighters.
Dudley Henriques

[Ron Attwood]

Thank you Dudley, that you all. Hallelujah, Ai, Caramaba! Mama Mia! I have cracked it! Amazingly this airplane actually WANTS to fly! I was simply getting in the way. If only you could see the grin on my face!

[DHenriques_]

Thank you Dudley, that you all. Hallelujah, Ai, Caramaba! Mama Mia! I have cracked it! Amazingly this airplane actually WANTS to fly! I was simply getting in the way. If only you could see the grin on my face!

)))))))))) First thing I told every new student; " The airplane knows how to fly. Now all we have to do is get YOU up to speed ! "
DH

[speedy70]

Dudley's bill is in the post Ron

[Ron Attwood]

Dudley's bill is in the post Ron

I'll pay, I'll pay!

[dvm]

Ron,

Just for sport try this. Assuming you are lightly loaded (20 gals in the fuselage tank, full wing tanks and 5,00 ft of runway).
Hold the brakes and come up to 25-30 inches so you have rudder authority when you start your roll and smoothly and gradually apply power (as was stated) up to 45 inches and away you go. You don't always need 55 inches and a lower power setting will make her more easily handled on takeoff.

[Ron Attwood]

Ron,

Just for sport try this. Assuming you are lightly loaded (20 gals in the fuselage tank, full wing tanks and 5,00 ft of runway).
Hold the brakes and come up to 25-30 inches so you have rudder authority when you start your roll and smoothly and gradually apply power (as was stated) up to 45 inches and away you go. You don't always need 55 inches and a lower power setting will make her more easily handled on takeoff.

It won't nose over will it? I've just proven that my successful T/O (and landing) was not a fluke, so I'll get that truly under my belt then I'll try poking her with a sharp stick!

[taildraggin68]

Ron,

Just for sport try this. Assuming you are lightly loaded (20 gals in the fuselage tank, full wing tanks and 5,00 ft of runway).
Hold the brakes and come up to 25-30 inches so you have rudder authority when you start your roll and smoothly and gradually apply power (as was stated) up to 45 inches and away you go. You don't always need 55 inches and a lower power setting will make her more easily handled on takeoff.

It won't nose over will it? I've just proven that my successful T/O (and landing) was not a fluke, so I'll get that truly under my belt then I'll try poking her with a sharp stick!

As long as you do not give it any elevator input to raise the tail, it won't nose over til much higher MP, I usually go to 30MP then start my take off roll As Dudley says, do your part and you will enjoy the P-51 immensely, I love all the A2A planes I have, but the P-51 is still the all out favorite of mine.