Normal Landings (for Dudley)

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rpembert
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Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by rpembert »

I would like to have Dudleys input on this one. I now Have over 50hrs in the mustang but would like to get his method of entering the pattern and flying the pattern with the P-51D. I do fly in real life but the Mustang is a whole different beast. Do you do an overhead break and how far out do you set up? Do you use rudder trim? I have read the short field tip but municipal and regional airports are what I am getting at.

Thanks,
Joshua
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DHenriques_
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by DHenriques_ »

rpembert wrote:I would like to have Dudleys input on this one. I now Have over 50hrs in the mustang but would like to get his method of entering the pattern and flying the pattern with the P-51D. I do fly in real life but the Mustang is a whole different beast. Do you do an overhead break and how far out do you set up? Do you use rudder trim? I have read the short field tip but municipal and regional airports are what I am getting at.

Thanks,
Joshua
The best way to land a high performance prop fighter by far is from the overhead break; not so much because it "looks cool" but rather so as to keep the pattern in tight, in a curving flight path for visibility. The approach should also be planned so as to keep manifold pressure up as opposed to idling it back so as not to foul the plugs.
I always favored this approach when it was made available to me by ATC.
The break should be clean and not violent so as not to pull the aircraft down into drag rise all that much. The turn will bring the speed down to your gear speed for you. I liked to carry 10 degrees of flaps on initial to help stabilize the airplane after the break. Yes on the rudder trim. I always set up for 6 degrees right before flying the initial.

How you fly the approach is basically up to you. Use flaps as you see the need and opportunity and simply fly the circle. I liked to hold off running the prop up until I had the MP back far enough that doing it didn't wake up the people in Norway :-)
Fly the numbers and plan for a threshold speed of around 100knots and you should be fine.
Dudley Henriques

rpembert
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by rpembert »

Thanks Dudley. I fly with a friend of mine that has an Extra 300L and we always do an overhead so we keep the field in sight. We dont fly a normal pattern( downwind, base, Final) as we want to keep the plane close into the field. I will fly upwind and about 3/4 of the way down the runway I will initiate a break for my downwind. I would lower my flaps to 20deg as soon as I establish the down wind and bleed speed off till gear extension speed. I keep the throttle up to maintain about 135 for my turn to final and once established on final, full flaps. Cross the numbers at 105KIAS and the rest is history!

On your upwind are your flaps set to 10deg, and what speed are you flying your upwind at?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks,
Joshua
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DHenriques_
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by DHenriques_ »

rpembert wrote:Thanks Dudley. I fly with a friend of mine that has an Extra 300L and we always do an overhead so we keep the field in sight. We dont fly a normal pattern( downwind, base, Final) as we want to keep the plane close into the field. I will fly upwind and about 3/4 of the way down the runway I will initiate a break for my downwind. I would lower my flaps to 20deg as soon as I establish the down wind and bleed speed off till gear extension speed. I keep the throttle up to maintain about 135 for my turn to final and once established on final, full flaps. Cross the numbers at 105KIAS and the rest is history!

On your upwind are your flaps set to 10deg, and what speed are you flying your upwind at?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks,
Joshua
Upwind = Initial for me. I fly initial at 1200 feel agl around 200 indicated carrying 10 degrees of flaps. Break is at the runway 1/2 way point.
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rpembert
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by rpembert »

Thank you Sir, I do appreciate it!

Joshua
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by n421nj »

Can't wait to try this approach.
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by CodyValkyrie »

I find it extremely helpful, especially for the Mustang, since she likes to keep her speed. Been doing this a long time, and I HIGHLY recommend that beautiful curved approach, especially with those big nose planes like the P-47, where your visibility can be limited.
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by Bomber_12th »

The overhead-break pattern with warbirds is also very important from a safety standpoint - approaching the field with high energy, and making a pattern close-enough in, you'll be able to be in a position that you can still make the runway at any time if the engine quits. It's risky (frowned upon when you talk to experienced warbird pilots) to make a low-powered long-approach with these types of aircraft, as for the chance of an engine failure and being stuck with little energy far away from the airport. You'll see warbird pilots, especially flying fighters, perform overhead-break approaches far more than you will see otherwise. The overhead-break is also utilized to great advantage with formation approaches, as long as it is briefed properly prior to the flight, allowing proper spacing of each aircraft as they break from the formation over the runway and enter into the downwind.
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Alan_A
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by Alan_A »

Thanks for this - have been having good experiences with overhead breaks but am eager to refine my... um... approach... using Dudley's suggestions (e.g. 10 degrees flaps on initial; I'd been flying clean and then throwing on 20 degrees on downwind, which works but is a bit harsh).

Re: "not too violent" - is there a preferred bank angle for the turn to downwind or does it depend on variables (length of runway, necessary distance from the field, etc.)?

In general, I find I'm now able to survive my P-51 experiences thanks to Dudley's coaching - am grateful for any other tips he or others can provide.
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rpembert
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by rpembert »

One more question and I'll leave you guys alone. I have seen videos of pilots landing with their canopy open. I understand that it was a safety precaution if the aircraft decided it wanted a belly rub. The pilot could get out and please the plane. At which speed is it safe to open the canopy in flight?

Thanks,
Joshua
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DHenriques_
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by DHenriques_ »

rpembert wrote:One more question and I'll leave you guys alone. I have seen videos of pilots landing with their canopy open. I understand that it was a safety precaution if the aircraft decided it wanted a belly rub. The pilot could get out and please the plane. At which speed is it safe to open the canopy in flight?

Thanks,
Joshua
We figured on a speed of 130 knots as max for having the canopy open, but I don't recommend flying the 51 with the canopy open. The stacks are right in line with your ears in the Mustang and the noise is a royal bear.
The wind will beat you senseless in there and it sucks everything but the family cat out from the tail cone and drives stuff into your face with what feels like bullets hitting you.
The Brits liked to have their canopies open when landing and taking off for the reasons you quoted. I never did that in the prop fighters I flew.
Dudley Henriques

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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by Bomber_12th »

In regard to opening the canopy on the P-51 before landing, with all of those flying today, you'll never see the canopy being opened until after the pilot puts the gear down, and thus has reached the gear-safe speed of under 170 mph. In a P-51 pilot report written by the well known warbird pilot Bruce Lockwood, he actually included in his checklist he provided that the canopy should not be opened until the airspeed is 170 mph/gear speed, or lower. In some photoshoots, pilots like Vlado Lenoch have had the canopy open in-flight, but only at times when the gear and flaps are also down, and thus below the gear/flap safe speed of 170 mph.

Some pilots like to open the canopy before touching down (I've seen expert Mustang pilots like Peter Teichman, Alister Kay, Kermit Weeks, Rob Davies, Doug Rozendaal, etc., do so), while many others do not, until rolling-out on the runway - after the aircraft has settled, flaps selected up, under complete control - it's all up to an individual's discretion. Some have left the canopy open when taking off too (typically with a more subdued takeoff run, such as the formation takeoffs at Duxford, using only 46" MP), but closing it just after the gear and flaps are raised. When the P-51D that was borrowed by the Navy for carrier trials was being flown on and off of the USS Shangri-La in November 1944, all of the take-offs and landings were done with the canopy open, which of course was also a Navy thing to do at the time. Also, the same pilots that will sometimes land with the canopy open, will still be quick to have it closed when it comes to the run-up.
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by MatzeH84 »

Just a quick question regarding the breakoff - is there a standard phraseology? I guess this procedure may not be known by every ATCO.. Also, does it make any difference if you approach a controlled or uncontrolled airport? Here in Germany, flying VFR, you would have to enter the CTR via defined VRPs, which, combined with altitude restrictions, would already force you to maintain a rather slow, level flight. Entering the CTR with 200 indicated would be sporty at least, and rather unsafe regarding other VFR pilots in the pattern with their 152.
Which procedure would be recommendable in this scenario?
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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by DHenriques_ »

MatzeH84 wrote:Just a quick question regarding the breakoff - is there a standard phraseology? I guess this procedure may not be known by every ATCO.. Also, does it make any difference if you approach a controlled or uncontrolled airport? Here in Germany, flying VFR, you would have to enter the CTR via defined VRPs, which, combined with altitude restrictions, would already force you to maintain a rather slow, level flight. Entering the CTR with 200 indicated would be sporty at least, and rather unsafe regarding other VFR pilots in the pattern with their 152.
Which procedure would be recommendable in this scenario?
In the United States, the normal procedure when arriving at a controlled field in something like a Mustang would be to request an overhead approach if that is what you desire. ATC will then evaluate its traffic situation and advise either approved or denied. If denied that would normally be followed immediately with whatever pattern ATC wishes for your arrival and at that point your arrival will follow those instructions and you will fly whatever approach ATC has requested.
Dudley Henriques

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Re: Normal Landings (for Dudley)

Post by Tomas Linnet »

Dudley

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer these questions for all us armchair pilots. I really appreciate it!

Have a nice weekend!
Kind Regards
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