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 Post subject: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Airman Basic

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:43 pm
Posts: 7
every time i taxi my spitfire it over heats and i have steam pouring out of it then cuts out.
how can i stop this happening? :?


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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Senior Airman
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Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 10:52 am
Posts: 201
Location: South Coast, England.
It's prone to this, as it's cramped within the engine bay, so has poor airflow inside, plus it has a small radiator.

As soon as you've got the donk running, get up in the air as soon as possible; do not needlessly delay taxi for departure, make sure the radiator shutter is fully open whilst on the ground, and use minimal power to get moving.

Also check in the maintenance hangar that everything's in good condition, and make sure that coolant is present before engine start.

When you do get in the air; keep the speed up, as this will aid cooling.

Before arrival at an airfield, plan ahead in order to keep taxiing as short a time as possible.

Hope this helps a little,

John.

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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:18 pm 
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Senior Airman

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:55 pm
Posts: 109
Ah, no the radiator is under the wing, out of the propwash. Unless your moving it thru the air ..it gets hot quick.


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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Master Sergeant
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Location: Great Falls Army Air Base, Montana
Use the fine pitch propeller setting while you are on the ground, taking off and climbing, except when you are doing your pre-flight runup checks.

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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:46 pm 
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Airman Basic

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:43 pm
Posts: 7
thanks guys this will help alot. :D


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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:11 pm 
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Senior Airman

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:55 pm
Posts: 109
Start with a cold engine on the runway, set the rad door full open, let the oil temp come up and use about 6Lbs of boost and keep the rev counter at 2600, as soon as your safely airborn pull the throttle back to +2-3 and 2400RPM , push the nose down to keep your airspeed over 160 IAS keep checking the temps, your now a spit pilot :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:35 am 
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A2A Master Mechanic
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:04 pm
Posts: 1975
Location: San Francisco
If you must taxi a ways on the ground keep the speed up...I think I recall a number
around 18 mph or greater (Darryl...where are you? ).

On landing, once you touch down get the flaps UP ASAP as they impede airflow to
the radiator.

As oakfloor mentioned, once airborne, throttle back and set the RPM to around 2400.
I always try to maintain at least 180 mph IAS until I am high enough for the OAT
to have come down and the cooler air bringing temps in line.

When my oil and coolant temps are at "9 o'clock and 3 o'clock" I know my Spit's
engine will be happy :)

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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:38 am 
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Senior Airman
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Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 10:52 am
Posts: 201
Location: South Coast, England.
oakfloor wrote:
Ah, no the radiator is under the wing, out of the propwash. Unless your moving it thru the air ..it gets hot quick.


I know, I was initially pointing out that the cramped nature of the engine bay is most certainly a reason why temp's rise quickly, as well as the rad' being out on the wing. Perhaps I worded my post poorly.

John.

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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Staff Sergeant

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:21 am
Posts: 255
Location: Poland
Read the manual, it exists for a reason. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:17 am 
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A2A Spitfire Crew Chief
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:41 pm
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Gypsy Baron wrote:
If you must taxi a ways on the ground keep the speed up...I think I recall a number
around 18 mph or greater (Darryl...where are you? ).

On landing, once you touch down get the flaps UP ASAP as they impede airflow to
the radiator.




Sounds good Paul.

It also helps on taxi back in, to cut the fuel valves..this wil give you 1-2 minutes of running (depending on throttle) to get back in and avoid having to rundown the Merlin whilst stationary.

As soon as she starts to run rough, pull the SRC-O.

Darryl

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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:47 am
Posts: 494
oakfloor wrote:
...as soon as your safely airborn pull the throttle back to +2-3 and 2400RPM...

2-3 PSI at 2400 RPM is hardly climbing power in this aircraft... I usually climb around 6 PSI in the Mk I and 8 or 9 PSI in the Mk II, both at 2600-2850 RPM, as per the manual. As stated previously...

Caldemeyn wrote:
Read the manual, it exists for a reason. :wink:

If it isn't unduly hot and you maintain 185 IAS or better you shouldn't have much of a problem keeping temps under control and your time to altitude will be considerably shorter, saving you fuel in the long run.

-Dave

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Last edited by r4y30n on Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Staff Sergeant
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:48 am
Posts: 344
Location: Finland
r4y30n wrote:
oakfloor wrote:
...as soon as your safely airborn pull the throttle back to +2-3 and 2400RPM...

2-3 PSI at 2400 RPM is hardly climbing power in this aircraft... I usually climb around 6 PSI in the Mk I and 8 or 9 PSI in the Mk II, both at 2600-2850 RPM, as per the manual. As stated previously...

It's not the maximum allowed climb power but it's not stupid to throttle back and level off for a while for the engine to cool down from the take-off run.

r4y30n wrote:
Caldemeyn wrote:
Read the manual, it exists for a reason. :wink:

If it isn't unduly hot and you maintain 185 IAS or better you shouldn't have much of a problem keeping temps under control and your time to altitude will be considerably shorter, saving you fuel in the long run.

Does it really save fuel to climb at full (non-emergency) power?

I tend to climb at [2400, +1, lean] if the temperature is cool enough and engine is below 100. If it's above, I either enrich or reduce climb rate to get more airspeed. I typically use 160 mph for low-power climb as low power climb with 180+ mph can be rather time consuming. 180+ is good for +6 psi climbs. I have not measured my fuel consumption over an entire trip but I do notice that I'm using only half the gallons per hour while doing my yukkuri climb.

EDIT: fixed one broken quote-tag


Last edited by whiic on Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:15 am 
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Staff Sergeant

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:47 am
Posts: 494
whiic wrote:
It's not the maximum allowed climb power but it's not stupid to throttle back and level off for a while for the engine to cool down from the take-off run.

Yes, all flight manuals state reducing from full takeoff power to climb power but 2-3 psi is only a moderate cruise setting on 100 octane. And as far as keeping cool is concerned I find it's better to punch through to higher altitudes immediately because there's cooler air up higher. This assumes a flight long enough to warrant a high altitude cruise.
whiic wrote:
Does it really save fuel to climb at full (non-emergency) power?

Takeoff power is actually the full non-emergency power, climb power is somewhat less. Does it save fuel to climb at takeoff power? No. Does it save fuel to climb at max climb power? Yes. Lemme explain...

Specific fuel consumption (SFC) is lower under high load conditions meaning a lower fuel burn rate per horsepower produced (less lbs of fuel per hour per horsepower). Diesel generators on ships and in power stations typically run what they call 80/90 meaning 80% load, 90% speed because you get the most power out of the rate of fuel you're burning under these conditions. Basically, if you run into full load enrichment (also called a RICH RICH condition in aviation speak, page 33 of the Spitfire Accusim manual) you're using too much power and wasting fuel (SFC increases), this is the condition under takeoff power. We do, however, want to be as close to that point as possible because sitting on that edge means your engine is making as much power as possible per pound of fuel burned per hour and we need that power to get to altitude in a timely manner because doing so maximizes the time at cruise conditions. I assume that max climb power in your average flight manual is calculated by the engineers who built these engines to be on that aforementioned edge, correct me if I'm wrong.

Long story short, in the long run it takes the same average power (horsepower per hour) to get to any given altitude regardless of throttle, if you do it at low power it's less power and more time, at high power it's more power and less time. The resulting number will be the same every time, the difference is that in one scenario we are minimizing SFC by keeping the load high and the other we aren't.
whiic wrote:
I tend to climb at [2400, +1, lean] if the temperature is cool enough and engine is below 100. If it's above, I either enrich or reduce climb rate to get more airspeed. I typically use 160 mph for low-power climb as low power climb with 180+ mph can be rather time consuming. 180+ is good for +6 psi climbs. I have not measured my fuel consumption over an entire trip but I do notice that I'm using only half the gallons per hour while doing my yukkuri climb.

It's important to realize that gallons per hour is not the only datum in total fuel consumption for a flight. For starters, at any given burn rate your true airspeed will be higher at higher altitude, meaning that for a given power output you will get more miles per gallon at 20,000 ft than at 10,000 ft because you are going faster for the same burn rate. Climbing quickly will put you into that sweet spot sooner so that you can minimize the fuel burned per mile for the duration of the flight. The break even point is when the fuel burned by climbing higher and fuel saved by cruising higher equals the mileage penalty of flying lower. This is why there's little point in hitting a high altitude for short trips, the climb consumes too much of the total trip time.

I'm eager to hear what any professional pilots here have to say on the matter of fuel consumption.

-Dave

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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:27 am 
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A2A Spitfire Crew Chief
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Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:41 pm
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r4y30n wrote:
I assume that max climb power in your average flight manual is calculated by the engineers who built these engines to be on that aforementioned edge, correct me if I'm wrong.
-Dave


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 Post subject: Re: spitfire overheating
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Airman First Class

Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:33 am
Posts: 67
I'm by no means professional, but in normally aspirated propeller planes the range (fuel per mile in other words) doesn't depend much on altitude:
http://selair.selkirk.ca/Training/Aerod ... e_prop.htm
Quote:
For starters, at any given burn rate your true airspeed will be higher at higher altitude, meaning that for a given power output you will get more miles per gallon at 20,000 ft than at 10,000 ft because you are going faster for the same burn rate.

That would be true for jet powered plane, but not really for a propeller with piston engine (in simplest case without any charger). Due to increased TAS at higher altitude required to obtain optimal IAS, the thrust would be lower. Range will stay pretty the same, but the advantage of flying higher is shorter trip time. Spitfire is equipped with supercharger which changes things a bit, but the above link is a good starter.


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