beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Battle of Britain "Wings of Victory"
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stickman
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Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:17
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beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by stickman »

Folks,
Our Campaign coder has done a lot of Campaign code fixing this last spring.
In the brief summary that I wrote up for what he did, there are 22 fixes. About half are minor fixes and about half are big fixes.

One of big fixes is that he now has the LW Escorts successfully rendezvousing with the bombers!
He got the take off times for fighter escorts to be different and synch in with bomber fly times to the Fighter Rendezvous Way Point. :D
He originally made this work 100% of the time, but some "fog of war" objections were raised, so he coded in a 5% failure to rendezvous rate.
I am currently testing that and primarily testing whether Escorts that do rendezvous correctly will engage RAF interceptors as they should do with a 1 Staffel per 1 RAF Squadron threat response.
After testing and reporting 10 Raids with level bombers and Attached escorts, they always do engage as expected. :)
After testing and reporting 5 Raids with level bombers and Detached escorts, they did engage as expected 4 times,
but 1 time, 3 Staffeln pounced at the same time on the 1st RAF Squadron that should up. That time the Rules of Engagement were not followed.
After testing and reporting 12 Raids with ME110 bombers with Attached and also Detached escorts,
I see that Attached Emil escorts still refuse to engage any threats and are worthless, as always before, :x
and see that Detached Escorts with ME110 bombers do engage good with a 1:1 response, as so since v2.12. :)

More tests to come, but I decided to start posting them here in the public forum to spread some good news.

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Here is what I am using and my Option settings:

Using :
The c07b_212 EXE. for v2.13
MultiSkin On and Bill's 110v7 MultiSkin changes. (I have to use the low resolution 1024 terrain, and set Options texture details only to High to use MultiSkin)

Mission Options are default LW and RAF Skill Modifier both at Medium.

bdg.txt options that may influence escort and other behaviors:
AI_Always_Sees_Enemy=ON (not default)
Wingmen_Always_Sees_Enemy=ON (not default)
RAF_Breaksoff_Before_France=ON (default)
Do_You_Want_Random_Mixed_Squad_skills=OFF (default)
Campaign_Break_Off_Code=ON (default)
Do_You_Want_Increase_Firing_Rate_Of_Hand_Held_Gunners=OFF (not default) # ON = Increased Firing rate to Historic for hand held guns OFF = Leave the firing rate as implemented currently
Note by stickman on this last one: If I set this to ON, my level bombers (me never firing) butcher the RAF interceptors. They do well enough damage to them when this is set OFF.

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Note!
With my Convoy Campaign Raid tests, the LW and RAF aircraft losses usually end up in a draw, fairly equal. About 60% of the time.
Sometimes the LW gets badly beaten up, sometimes the RAF gets mauled.
The test report below is one where the RAF had an unusually bad day, and not with typical results.

----Report:

Here is another test where I send two full Gruppe of level bombers at a Target, escorted by one Gruppe of ME109's. Expecting a lot of RAF response.
So far I have been making piece-meal single attack thrusts at the RAF. Not my usual tactics, but then at July Campaign start, I do not have many Emil escort Gruppen for Raids.
This is also so that I can better look at the Diaries and Review reports vs. seen 3D activity. Not my main testing mission, but curious to see how it now works with the last beta.
I do not see a lot to complain about, but am not the best Reports tester.

For this 13 July, evening phase, only one piece-meal Raid, I want to hit the Woolston Spitfire factory hard. I feel the need to start shutting down some enemy fighter production.
Tomorrow on 14 July, I am going to stop pussy-footing around, and hit fighter factories with everything I have. Only those that I have Recon info for, though.

Raid on Woolston Supermarine Works.
Altitude 9000 feet.
K54/III (LG2/III) in lead, from Chateaudun, and K54/I in rear, from Orleans Bricy. Ju88 bombers all. Both Veteran skill units.
Escorted Attached (Above) by JG27/I from Plumetot. Poor skilled unit.
BTW, the JG27/I from Plumetot has 4 minutes of projected fuel left when they get over Plumetot to land. Cutting it close!

-- Fighter Rendezvous.
Different take times. Successful.

-- Dogleg
Before I reach Dogleg I see one RAF icon show up near the Ventnor radars.
-- I FRAG into 3D.
I see 3 RAF Squadrons at the same altitude as I, all three on my starboard quarter. !!!
The Emil Escorts above me, saw them too, and all 3 Staffeln Escorts peeled off the same time, and engaged these 3 Threats. (one HurriA, one HurriB, and one SpitfireA)

The Gunslingers are JG27 Emils. The whole Gruppe goes after the 3 new RAF Squadron threats. It looks like only 2 RAF Squadrons here, but there are 3!
Image

- A minute later when my bombers reach The Isle of Wight, the 4rth RAF Squadron threat arrives, which are HurriA.
Holy hell! I wanted a big fight, and I got it! I should have ordered the J27/III Regular boys from Carquebut to join us, too, but I want to save them for tomorrow.

All hell broke loose, and I resisted the temptation to jump into a gunner position on my Ju88 and start firing.
Observed the action around me, looking at other's actions, hoping that I would not be blown away!
I saw many HurriA's, HurriB's, and SpitA's attacking the bombers from this time on...
until I got to the Egress Point and the pressure was still so heavy that I jumped into the Gunner's positions. Hell!
(I never killed any of the RAF, but I holed a few)

-- Target
NOTE! I did change the game given Dogleg & Initial Way Points approach to the Itchen River factories, as I built them and know where they are all laid out.
The game gave me an oblique approach from east about 30 degrees to Main Target and the Itchen river. I don't like that approach,
so I moved the Dogleg and the Initial Way Points for a direct north upper thrust along the southerly flowing Itchen River, and factories there,
looking for a maximum bomb laying effect, knowing that many bombs get scattered, and over-shoot, all too often. This is at 9000 feet, tho. I should have a fair degree of accuracy.

Well.. this is not a typical two bomber Gruppen bomb lay, which is usually more concentrated on intended Target, and usually the rear Gruppe over shoots the Target.
I expected some "over shoot" bombs to land on the northern Itchen Factory. Instead, the lead KG54/III Gruppe got hammered by the RAF before target and dropped back behind the rear KG54/I Gruppe,
and released their bombs in a bomb in trail effect, which I did not order for this Raid, but gave me better results than I ever hoped for.

YEE...HAAWW! OH! YEAH!!! Looks like a stick of six B52G's bombing in trail over Hanoi! :twisted:
I won't get into the the Vietnam War, here. That is for Hell's Half Acre. I did get a draft card when I was 17, 1971. I volunteered and enlisted US Navy.
I could of got a college deferment, but felt the need to Serve My Country first. and.. not as a Rifleman in Vietnam!
Not pictured are the 20+ RAF fighters attacking the bombers at this moment.
Image

-- Egress
Still under heavy attack by the RAF interceptors, and now I jump into the gunner positions. I don't want to die before this test Raid is done.
?About 20 RAF interceptors still slashing at us? They are every where attacking the bombers. No Emils about, still engaged in our rear.

- Egress at coast of Isle of Wight.
I see some Emil Escort "Gunslingers" show up and take off some the pressure upon the bombers. Yeah!
I quit being a gunner and go back to being just an observer of AI behavior.

Note my Red Dog 1, Hawk Leader personal AC starboard engine smoking, and while I felt the need to jump into the gunner positions and try to survive.
(My forward gunner died before this) This Raid was one Hot-Damn!-Hell! deal from Dogleg to mid-Channel return.
The Gunslinger I "veggie" boys are JG27/I 1st Staffel. I saw 9 of them arrive. 10 RAF AC are pictured here, but saw more of them, around.
Image

After losing sight of the English Coast, and my valiant Emils that were chasing interceptors,
I had about 10 RAF interceptors attacking the main Raid... until mid-Channel when there was only two persistent ones trying to kill us.
They faded away at mid-Channel.

I look around at the two Ju88 Gruppen. My "rear position" K54/I Gruppe is looking OK, I can count 28 in formation, of 30 originals.
the "forward position" K54/III Gruppe is no longer in proper position (and never was since they were first massively attacked well before Target).
and are scattered around now. I count 18 of them out of 30 sent from the beginning of this Raid.

-- Mid Channel and no more threats visible.
I ALT-X to 2D map.

AC Staffel or Squadron Icons I see:
No RAF icons show.
LW K54/III which was the lead Gruppe. (1st Staffel) not seen and presumed to be destroyed? (2nd Staffel) 9/10, and (3rd Staffel) 8/10. Ouch!
LW K54/I which was the rear Gruppe.. (1st Staffel) 10/10 (2nd Staffel) 10/10, and (3rd Staffel) 10/10. Always better to be in the 2nd attack wave!
JG27/I. (1st Staffel) 7/12 (2nd Staffel) 10/12, and (3rd staffel) 12/12.

-- Quit to next phase, 14 July Morning phase.

-- Diaries:
KG54/III (lead) destroyed 9, damaged 6. Claims: 3.
KG54/I ..(rear) destroyed 0, damaged 1. Claims: 3.
JG27/I (escort) destroyed 5, damaged 3. Claims: 5.
These Emil boys were Poor skilled before, now they are battle born Regulars.

-- Review:
Was last phase: LW destroyed 92 and RAF destroyed 97.
Now this phase: LW destroyed 110 and RAF destroyed 127. Or this last Raid: LW - 18 destroyed and RAF - 30 destroyed. Both considering damaged write-offs I think.


Testing Reports is not my intention here, but I like to get a feel of where we are now with them.
Our coder, two27, is currently working on the 3D to 2D casualties reports to make them work better.

Bottom line for this Raid is:

1. The LW Escort Gruppe did rendezvous properly with two different bomber Gruppen. (two27's coded take off time fix).
Rate of fighter rendezvous success, now: 28 successful out of 33 rendezvous attempts. (85 % of success)
Note, if I find an unsuccessful rendezvous attempt, I delete it and try another Raid that does rendezvous OK, as I am testing Escort behavior when rendezvous is successful primarily.
The rendezvous success rate is a secondary test, and I still have not tried 100 Raids to get more data for the coded failure rate of 5%.

2. The Escort Gruppe responded exactly as desired with a 1:1 response to Raid threats, that is, 1 Staffel per 1 RAF Squadron that intercepts.

3. For the RAF response to this Raid, which is also usually a 1:1 response, that is, for every bomber Staffel, the RAF tries to send 1 Squadron against it,
I only saw 4 Squadrons (arriving in formation) actually reach the bombers in 3D.

I must say again, that the bomb lay results were exceptionally lucky on this Raid.
Only attacked the Westland Factory before during this running Campaign. It has only Heavy Damage. Needs another Raid.
That attack was a test to see if the ME110 Z76/III Gruppe stationed at Laval, deep south in France, could be useful. Yeah, they can strike most south coastal Targets in England.
Only the the JG27/III Gruppe out of Carquebut has fuel to reach the Westland Factory, though. Wish I had some Emils operating out of Cherbourg.
Anyway, this Lucky Strike at the Itchen River knocked down Spitfire Production from 35 to 4, for the time being.

Image

I will hit the two Fighter Factories at Brooklands and finish off the Westland Factory tomorrow, 14 July. Got Fair Weather, now. :)

Aloha!

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attilla
Senior Airman
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Joined: 09 Jul 2008, 16:19
Location: VIANA DO CASTELO - PORTUGAL

Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by attilla »

Great work chaps, as usual ;)

Many thanks Stickman.
One only starts to live after seeing the Elephant.

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stickman
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Posts: 8754
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:17
Location: Oahu, Hawai'i

Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by stickman »

For the 14 July morning phase, I decided try and destroy the Itchen Aircraft Factory.
This factory is the northern one that is on the Itchen River, that I missed during the previous phase Raid on Woolston Supermarine Works.
Then I destroyed Woolston and Thornycroft Motors plus put heavy damage on Southampton Electrical Works, in a lucky bomb lay.
Itchen Aircraft Factory had only one pier side warehouse hit, and is listed as undamaged. This is a Spitfire assembly factory. Prime target.

I have only the JG27/III fighters at Carquebut available close for Emil escorts.
Plenty of level bombers. Set the Raid up like this:
K55/II He111s from Chartres at 9,000 feet. I ordered them to bomb in trail.
JG27/III from Carquebut as Attached escorts, position Above. These are skilled Regulars.

The game gave me a Raid that went straight from Chartres to Itchen Aircraft Factory.
I looked at Route > Lanading and the Emils had 0 fuel left at Landing.
Also I want a straight up the river Raid path like the Raid above, bomb in trail. This because of the layout of the Target which is long and narrow along the river side.
So I changed the Way points around to get preferred Raid path and, give the Emils 11 minutes of fuel left when they get over Carquebut to land.

I have been looking at Emil fuel left at Landing each test mission to get a better idea of what the game has given the Emils as a range. Ferry-Cruise or Effective-Combat range?
In the pic below you can see what the take off fuel (after they reach 2,000 feet I think) is, at 84 minutes.
Also what the landing fuel left is when they reach the home field at 3,000 feet over the field and begin to circle down to land.
Now, I do not know how the game code calculates these minutes of fuel left at Landing.
The game code cannot know how many minutes an AI Staffel will be engaged in hot and heavy fuel use minutes,
but it can predict how much fuel may used and minutes left at Way Points, if the AI Staffel just flies as escort to and from a Target in normal slow escort cruise engine use.
This "no combat, just cruise" fuel left in minutes seen in menus and Way Points is what I think we see. Ferry-Cruise range.
So.. I always try to give the Emils no less than a 10 minute "cushion" considering that they will be in combat, for landing fuel.
Plus.. it takes some time (3 minutes?) for the Emils two actually land after they reach the field at 3,000 feet.
In tests so far with Raids at the extremities, west and north of Greater London, and having 10 minutes of fuel at 3,000 feet landing back in Calais area,
I have seen in 3D, the Emils have 40 liters of fuel left at that point where they start to circle in to land,
and 24 liters left when they landed, taxied and turned off the engine. More reports on this Emil fuel use later.

Pic here shows my plan of attack, plus Takeoff and Landing fuel info for the Emil escorts.

Pic Notes:
1. The blue dot is the Bomber Rendezvous Way Point. (I put it over the Escort's airfield to line up the Raid path better.)
2. The red dot is the Fighter Rendezvous Way Point. This is where the bombers and the escorts should meet up and form together.
3. The pink dot is the Dogleg Way Point. This is always the soonest point where the RAF interceptors will appear. Or very near it. You never know who may show up from where.
Also note that all of these 3 Way Points are equidistant from each other. Yeah! I measure such things. They are ALWAYS equadistant from each other.

Image

---- Sorry for the Emil fuel thinking side-track.

Anyway, I send one Raid of Gruppe of level bombers and one Gruppe of Emil Attached escorts at Above position. A simple and typical Raid.
Looking for the escorts behavior to the Rules of Engagement.

-- Takeoff and Fighter Rendezvous Way Points.
Now that two27 fixed the code to make the fighter escorts rendezvous with the bomber Raid successfully, by coding different take off times for units involved in a Raid,
(with a 5% chance of failure to do so),
A LW player can (almost) be assured the LW Staff Officers will synchronize take off times so that they do so.
The LW player can also cheat this 5% failure by looking at Route > Takeoff.
If he sees that the take off times are the same for a forward fighter escort is EXACTLY the same as with a rear bomber unit from way back in the rear.
Then he can smell a skunk! No rendezvous.
He can then delete that Raid, and remake a new Raid, exactly the same as before, and it will next likely work OK with proper rendezvous.
This is called CHEATING!

Here are two27's words about LW rendezvous from his research:
" Escort rendezvous was a huge problem early. Once Goering gave the order to have bombers rendezvous over the fighter fields this problem was largely (not completely) eliminated."
Later a few days:
"Randomized fighter rendezvous. I couldn't find the date of the order for rendezvous over fighter fields,
so chose 5% as best fit over the course of the battle. For bad rendezvous times am using original takeoff time code so they will take off same time as bombers."

So far with my slow testing, testing rendezvous success I see:
29 successful rendezvous out of 33 Raids tried. (87.9% chance of success)

-- Dogleg.
7 miles before Dogleg the 1st RAF Sq. shows up.
-- Frag in as Hawk Leader in a bomber.
This 1st threat are Spitfires at the same altitude as the bombers. They make a pass through they bombers and the 1st Emil Staffel engages them.
2nd and 3rd Emil Staffeln stay with the bombers. The Raid leaves this first threat behind, busy fighting the 1st Emil Staffel.
Minutes later over the Isle of Wight a 2nd RAF threat of Hurricanes show up visible, and the 2nd Emil Staffel engages them.
This fight is left behind with only three Hurricanes attacking them bombers until Target is reached.

-- Target.
Still have 3 Hurricanes attacking the bombers. In and out of the formation with no effect.
Flak is very heavy around the bombers when those 3 Hurris are away from the bombers, and lets up when the Hurris are near the bombers.
Bombs dropped, but not In Trail as ordered. Not sure Bomb In Trail works? Will try it some more. It used to work.
Soon after bomb lay, the Flak gets very heavy again with no Hurris in sight. I see one bomber go down from Flak and then my own bomber loses a wing to flak.

Image

Note: Southampton was in July-August 1940, and (is now with BoBII) surrounded by 39 HAA guns in 10 separate Troops of 4 guns each. One Troop has 3 guns.
Likewise, Portsmouth was in July-August 1940, and (is now with BoBII) surrounded by 44 HAA guns in 13 separate Troops of 4 guns each, mostly. Some Troops have only 2 guns.

Here is how I placed the Troops historically, best I know. The blue numbers are 40mm Bofors, BTW, and they fire too.
Image

So HAA flak is very heavy at Southampton and Portsmouth. Very Scary Heavy! I know that I lost 4 He111s and none were killed by fighters. These 4 bombers were flak kills.
I have this bdg.txt option switched as OFF:
Do_You_Want_Flak_And_AAA_Fire_if_Friendly_within_1000_Meters=OFF # ON = Flak and AAA when friendly is within 1000 meters or OFF = No Flak and AAA fire when friendly is within 1000 meters
The previous Raid at Southampton I had constant RAF fighters attacking the bombers around Southampton, and flak was light, because of the above switch to OFF.
This Raid I had times where no RAF fighters were close to the bombers and flak was very heavy at those times.

--ALT-X to 2D Map.
I do not see that 2nd RAF Sq. icon anywhere. The 1st RAF Sq. shows 7/12 and is with my J27/III 1st Staffel.
K55/II icons: (1) 10/10 (2) 8/10 (3) 8/10
J27/III icons (1) 11/12 (2) 11/12 (3) 12/12

Run in 2D for awhile and all LW units form up with the bombers before mid-Channel. The 1st RAF icon follows them and catches them at mid-Channel.

At this point I want to Frag into 3D a second time (something that I normally never do) to check what fuel the 3rd Emil Staffel has mid-way home.
This is the Staffel that never engaged (properly so) as no 3rd RAF threat showed up, and never used any fuel fighting.

-- Frag into 3rd Emil Staffel, Hawk 4, the rear guy, as I am a testing observer here, not a hero.

Check fuel gauges. I made 3 of them, a 3D cockpit gauge, a 2D HUD gauge, both measuring liters, and a 2D HUD digital readout of fuel in kilograms. They all agree.
When I painted and calibrated fuel gauges for all flyable AC, I used WWII US aviation octane gasoline as a base for all aircraft fuel calculations.
Could have used WWII UK avgas specs, but found damned little difference between the two. Tiny grams.
I do know that 1 liter of WWII US aviation gasoline equals 0.72 kilograms by weight.

Here is my fuel at Frag in. 187 kilograms = 260 liters.
Image

I go to auto-pilot and external view to look around and see the whole Raid back in formation going home with 7 Spitfires from 1st RAF threat chasing us.
The Spits do not attack the bombers and instead head for the 2nd Emil Staffel which are some distance away from proper formation to starboard of Raid.
I see the Spits gleefully start picking off the 2nd Staffel which continues to ignore this threat on them and fly straight and normal like in locked
Return To Base orders. Dammitt!! :evil:

Well, the 1st Emil Staffel sees this happening and orders Attack! They go after this original 1st RAF threat, a second time.
I see poor RTB 2nd Staffel dropping into sea.
Image

20 seconds later my 3rd Emil Staffel is ordered to attack and they do, with me still in auto-pilot to observe AI.

Pretty soon looks like all of 2nd Emil Staffel is gone, and the Spitfires are getting butchered by better than 2:1 odds.
My own Emil AI Regular guy gets two kills, one of which was the last Spitfire down, and may have been a RTB, no fight back attitude,
but.. hey! this is payback for them hitting my RTB guys!

First kill.
Image

Second kill, Probably a RTB no fight back guy?
Image

After that kill, no more RAF in sight, and my Emil AI guy was going east more than I like, but finally turned around back to the remaining JG27 Gunslingers.
I check fuel after this last Gunslinger fight that lasted only about 3-4 minutes? Time to get back to France!
I have 153 kilograms of fuel left after this quick fight, which = 213 liters of fuel.
Burned 47 liters killing the last of the 1st RAF threat. The 2nd time that they were sighted and engaged by Emil escorts!
Image

-- ALT-X back to 2D Map and let the LW land. No RAF icons on map.
I am missing my (2) Emil Staffel icon, the one that went locked-no-fight-back RTB and got butchered in 3D by them 7 Spits.
J27III icons are now (1) 9/12, and (3) 11/12.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- Next Phase.

-- Target Damage.
Critical Damage. 7 of 11 individual targets at the Itchen Aircraft Factory destroyed or damaged.
Spitfire production falls from 4 to 0.

-- Diaries.
KG55/II:: 4 destroyed and 2 damaged. Claims - 0. (the 4 kills were from HAA flak, I am pretty sure in 3D)
JG27/III: 4 destroyed and 11 damaged. Claims - 10 Spitfires, 9 Hurricanes. (not what I saw in 3D exactly, especially the LW RTB casualties.)

-- Review.
Last phase it was: LW destroyed - 110 & RAF destroyed - 127.
This phase it is:: LW destroyed - 121 & RAF destroyed - 151.
This phase LW lost 11 destroyed & RAF lost 24 destroyed. (not what I saw in 3D and 2D exactly, especially the LW RTB casualties.)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Conclusions.

1a. The Emil escorts in the Attached role with level bombers still engage the RAF interceptors as they should when threatened. They have in all my tests.
1b. On the 2nd Frag into game I also see these Emil escorts once reformed for the flight home, attack and engage the same 1st threat twice,
and the previously unengaged 3rd Staffel attack it, too.
However, the 2nd Staffel refused to fight back when attacked. Low fuel or ammo issues? I don't know.
This was the Staffel that engaged the 2nd RAF threat of Hurricanes, Hurris of which I never saw hide nor hair of since after leaving the Target.

2. The fighters successfully rendezvoused with the bombers.
29 Emil Gruppen out of 34 Emil Gruppen so far sortied, rendezvoused successfully. 85.3% success rate.

3. Bomb In Trail did not work as it had before many years ago. Will look at this more. May complain to the coders.

4. I still don't like the idea of Fragging into 3D twice in the same phase.
I may be wrong about this now, but I will still try to Frag in only once, unless checking Emil fuel gauges.

5. Minor note: Does a Player get credit for kills even though he is flying in auto-pilot? Yes. I got 2 kills in auto-pilot this phase.
I love my Emil Regulars! The JG27/III boys at Carquebut are still Regulars with Very Good Morale. They dropped to Category C, tho. Only 32 aircraft.
Can't use them again until they get more aircraft. I need to send them new aircraft tomorrow. They are the Point Squad on my left flank.

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stickman
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Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by stickman »

Next test-

14 July noon phase.

Target: Brooklands Hawker Factory.

KG1/II and KG1/I. 10,000 feet. Bomb in Trail.
JG3/III escorting Attached, Starboard. Regular skill. call sign Panther.
JG51/II escorting Detached, High. Poor skill. Call sign Viper.

-- Fighter Rendezvous Way Point.
Take off times were adjusted OK so that the fighter-bomber rendezvous was successful.
However, a few minutes after Fighter Rendezvous Way Point, the Detached J51/III icons were 5 miles ahead of the Raid, like I ordered them as Forward High position.

So far with my slow testing, testing rendezvous success I see:
30 successful rendezvous out of 34 Raids tried. (88.2% chance of success)

-- Dogleg Way Point.
When the Raid was 7 miles from reaching Dogleg, the 1st RAF icon appeared.

I Frag in when the Frag? menu pop ups. With KG1/I Fox 2. KG1/I is the rear bomber Gruppe.
In 3D I see that the Attached JG3 Panthers are Ahead of the bombers and not at Starboard position where I ordered them to be.
Ordered Starboard because I expect the RAF to show up on my starboard, and they did.
The Detached JG51 Vipers where high up OK, but quite a way ahead of me. 5 miles? Grrrr! Again not where I ordered them to be.

I look to my starboard quarter, and sure enough I see three RAF Squadrons. Two are near us (one Spit Sq. plus one Hurri Sq.) and the 3rd threat is below and more to our front, Hurriicanes.
All three Staffeln of my Attached JG3/III Panther escorts see them, too, and engage them all at the same time.

Image

The JG3 Panthers do not chase away and hold away all of the RAF fighters from the bombers, and 12 of the RAF fighters attack the bombers.
They go after the Mission Target as expected, which is (precisely) the Leader of the lead bomber formation.
I see one the lead bomber Staffel smoke and become a straggler, and other bombers of lead Staffel get hit.
Some hits on the fighters attacking the bombers from bomber gunners, none fatal.
Some of the JG3 Panthers are in close to the bombers trying to kill these 12 RAF fighters attacking the bombers

These same 12 RAF fighters continue to attack the bombers for several minutes with few losses on both sides...
and then I see a 4rth RAF threat appear in the Raid's front up higher than us!
Where the hell is my second Emil Gruppe, Detached escort which should be High and right above us, but went forward?

Less than 30 seconds later I see the 1st Staffel of the (wayward & forward) Detached JG51/II come back, and engage this 4rth RAF threat.
From high above, as I see the JG51 Vipers trailing contrails going after the threatening RAF.

Image

So far I have had 4 RAF Squadron threats, and 4 of my Emil Staffeln have engaged them, following the standard Rules of Engagement.
Other than both of the escort Gruppen failed to position themselves around the bombers as I ordered, I have no complaints, as long as they engage my threats!

-- Initial Way Point.
By now, there are 8 RAF fighters trying to attack the bombers, and I see 3 Emils trying to beat them off. Pressure on the bombers is getting relieved.

-- Target.
Now there are no RAF or Emils seen.
On bombing approach I do not see the bomber Gruppen reposition for the "Bomb In Trail" formation that I ordered. Still in "broad wing" formation.
On bomb lay, I see some slight bomb lay over shoot by both Gruppen. Not bad, they both mainly hit it hard.
Flak is light. (I historically placed 4 Troops of four guns each, around Brooklands). 16 HAA guns.
I placed them in true locations as Anti Aircraft Command did. Not sure about their 3.7" gun ranges over Brooklands. I can check it.

-- Egress Way Point.
No RAF interceptors or Emil escorts in sight.
One minute later, I see 4 Spitfires show up low down, and they fade away.
Later, a flaming Hurricane with a nearby Panther.. then they faded away.
Later, a smoking Spitfire.

-- Coast at Eastbourne.
From Egress to here, I have seen no RAF.
After a mile off the Eastbourne coast I see the J51/II (3rd) Staffel Detached escorts come to us from behind on High, trailing contrails.
This is one Staffel that never had to engage the RAF interceptors on a standard 1:1 (one Emil Staffel per 1 RAF Squadron) Rules of Engagement.
Only 4 threats I saw, and J51/II (3rd) Staffel is #6 to last engage threats.

-- Mid Channel near Fighter Dispersal Way Point.
I always look behind me. Might be somebody following me.
Sure enough.. there are at least a half dozen Hurricannes chasing us.. getting closer.
I look up high and see if JG51/II (3rd) will go back home, or attack this (not new, but a Threat that has been engaged before) but a Threat.
I see them turn about back to Channel and engage this new/old threat.

Image

I never see any more fighters after 2 minutes. I see all bombers still in formation, except 2 missing from the lead Staffel of the lead Gruppe.
ALT-X to 2D Map.

------------------

Review:
Last phase it was: LW destroyed - 121 & RAF destroyed - 151.
This phase it is:: LW destroyed - 151 & RAF destroyed - 183.
This phase LW lost 30 destroyed & RAF lost 32 destroyed or damaged write-offs. This fight was a draw, which is typical with my tests.

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Conclusions.

1. The Emil escorts in the Attached role with level bombers still engage the RAF interceptors as they should when threatened. They have in all my tests.

2. The Emil escorts in the Detached role with level bombers engaged the RAF interceptors as they should when threatened.
Once, during an earlier test, I saw all three Staffeln of a Detached escort engage the 1st RAF threat. That was not proper Rules of Engagement.

3. The Attached, Starboard escorts were in Forward position in 3D, and the Detached, High escorts acted like they were ordered as Forward High.
Both Gruppen failed to follow my orders. They did engage all threats, though.

4. Bomb In Trail did not work again.
Also, when I look at Diaries, I see that the bombers were on Reconn Task. A possible clue for failure, to tell the coder.

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ME109 fuel at Landing.

When I planned the Raid the JG51/II was projected to have 13 minutes of fuel left when they reached home field at 3,000 feet.

I Fragged in when I got the Landing prompt menu.

This pic shows what I had with the 3rd Staffel that I saw engage RAF chasers over the Channel.
36 liters = 25.92 kilograms of fuel.

Image

This pic shows what I had after landing and reforming, engine shut down.
13 liters = 9.36 kilograms of fuel.

Image

I look at this Emil fuel use for two reasons.
1. To quadruple check my fuel gauges, version to version for accuracy.
I spent about 6 months making all aircraft have proper fuel capacities, then painting and calibrating all those gauges. Testing all (flyable AC) in full 3D flight, cruise conditions.
2. I often wondered if our Emil had the real "effective tactical range" true to history.
Knowing that I and blue six, our Flight Modeller, have correct fuel capacities for all aircraft, and also matched with two27's code adjusts for our new fuel capacities,
there is only variable in the models folder for the Bf109E4 to test and check.
That is.. the rate of fuel burn for the ME109E4 engine.
This rate-of-fuel-burn value is uncharted territory for all of us BDG men, and we are still using old Rowan values.

So far, with my tests.. I see no good reason to fiddle with it for the ME109E4 as to "effective tactical range" true to history.
I am also getting a good idea of which Targets the Calais area Emils can reach, while escorting bombers. And at which altitudes of attack.

During World War II, FUEL was more important than ARMAMENTS.

two27
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Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by two27 »

I've been wondering about the 109's effective range and when I get to the LW AI I'll want it consider range as a factor in escort assignment.

I think the disconnect at present in theoretical range vs. effective range is reflected in how the escorts fly relative to the bombers. In 3d the escorts hold a solid relative position from the bombers. Actual 109 escorts zig-zagged to keep their airspeed up. Speed is life for fighters. That burned more fuel prior to reaching the target area. While we could dumb down the game's 109 fuel, I don't think that is the right choice. Let's accept this as one of the little things that isn't entirely accurate in the knowledge that all the AC fuel capacities are spot on.

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stickman
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Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by stickman »

Actual 109 escorts zig-zagged to keep their airspeed up. Speed is life for fighters.
By doing so they could also see approaching enemies better. Even aircraft lower than they are.
Note that for all these test I have used this bdg.txt switch set to ON:
AI_Always_Sees_Enemy=ON
If they were always flying straight and level, this may be unrealistic, but if they zig-zagging and making banking turns frequently, they could see much better around and below them.
While we could dumb down the game's 109 fuel, I don't think that is the right choice. Let's accept this as one of the little things that isn't entirely accurate in the knowledge that all the AC fuel capacities are spot on.
OK with me.
What I have been seeing with Calais Emils and the fuel left that they have leftover at landing,
it looks OK to me with my understanding of their effective range at Raid Targets north and west of London.

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stickman
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Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by stickman »

14 July, evening phase:

Brooklands 9,000 feet.
KG53/III Veteran skill. Normal "broad wing" bombing formation ordered over Target.
JG51/III Poor skill. Attached, Starboard position.

-- Fighter Way Point rendezvous successful.
31 successful rendezvous out of 35 Raids tried. (88.6% chance of success)

-- Dogleg (about 5 miles before reaching it)
In 2D I see one RAF icon.
--I Frag in on pop up menu telling me I am under attack!
As one of the 2nd Staffel bombers.
The Emils have one Staffel in front, one to starboard close, and one just above the bombers very close. Too close.

1st RAF Spit Sq. appears and the 1st Staffel engages it, but not very well.. as I soon see most of those Spitfires come up quick behind the bombers
and promptly start shooting down the 2nd Emil Staffel which is so close that they look like part of the bomber formation.
This is not good and would not happen if they were Detached High or Attached Above. (I am not liking this Attached Starboard position)
Bombers fall too, and my bomber is soon smoking and goes straggler heading for home with a dead front gunner.

2nd RAF Sq. appears, and what's left of 2nd Staffel engages it.

-- Still over England heading home.
No fighters seen. I ALT-X to 2D with a sinking feeling.

-- 2D map.
There are still 3 Emil icons with heavy losses and 4 RAF icons, two of which are Patrols.

-- Landing.
KG53/III - 12 destroyed and 5 damaged, Claims 2.
JG51/III - 13 destroyed and 7 damaged, Claims 1.

-- Review.
Last phase it was: LW destroyed - 151 & RAF destroyed - 183.
This phase it is:: LW destroyed - 179 & RAF destroyed - 186.
This phase LW lost 28 destroyed & RAF lost 3 destroyed or damaged write-offs. This fight was a disaster for the LW. Good grief!

-- Damage on Brooklands Aircraft Factory:
Minimal. Only 2 more individual targets were damaged. I will have to bomb it again to insure it's destruction.
This whole Raid was a disaster!


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Conclusions:

1. The fighters rendezvous with the bombers was successful. :)

2. The Emil escorts in the Attached role with level bombers still engage the RAF interceptors as they should when threatened. They have in all my tests. :)

3. I am not liking choosing my Attached fighters to be in the Starboard position. :(

4. The LW get's it's butt kicked real hard! as many times as the RAf get's a really bad bloody beating!
So far with my puny piece meal piddly ass single Raid attacks per phase,
letting the RAF throw everything that they have against me, which is not already on Patrol,
and I have seen some Patrols from elsewhere, show up and attack me.

-------------------------------------------

I took my bruises and broken bones, and Saved this unfavorable result & Game, for 15 July.

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stickman
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Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by stickman »

15 July morning phase. Poor Weather.
MultiSkin Enabled.

Itchen Aircraft Factory. 9,000 feet. (I only have this important Hurricane assembly factory 50% destroyed. I need to knock it out better than 75% to insure total destruction)

KG54/I from Orleans Bricy. Regular skill. Normal "broad wing" bombing formation ordered over Target.
JG27/III from Carquebut. Regular skill. Attached escort, Above position.
JG27/I from Plumetot. Poor skill. Return escort, Above position.

Note.
I could not get an attack with only the Carqebut Emils that did not have them breaking off at the Initial Way Point due to low fuel.
Then I added an extra Emil Gruppen as Return Escort, and the Carquebut Emils had plenty of fuel for the Raid. 17 minutes on Landing.
Not sure why this is happening. Emils from Carquebut should have plenty of fuel for a Raid to Itchen.
Using bombers from Orleans Bricy to rendezvous with, which is the farthest away airfield from England there is... and is a real stress test for rendezvous,
may have something to with it.

Raid set up:
Image

-- Fighter Way Point rendezvous successful.
32 successful rendezvous out of 36 Raids tried. (88.9% chance of success now)

-- Dogleg (about 5 miles before reaching it)
In 2D I see 4 RAF icons!
--I Frag in on pop up menu telling me I am under attack! As one of the 3rd Staffel bombers, Eagle 2.
Oddly, the Ju88 bombers which I orderd to use the normal "broad wing" bombing formation, are in a bombe in trail column formation. :?: ??
The Emils are right above the bombers as expected, but oddly, too.. they are also in a column formation, rather than their usual "broad wing" formation. :?: ??

Image

As soon as I get into 3D I see 4 RAF Squadrons off my starboard quarter.
Hell's Belles! Are they using Big wing tactics on me? Not a typical 1:1 interceptor response to Raid bombers.
The Attached Emils see them too, and all 3 JG27/III Staffeln break formation and charge into the 4 RAF threats.
When I say charge, that's what they did. Looked like 4 Troops of British Hussars charging a French artillery battery, and 3 French Hussar Troops counter-charging the Brit cavalry ala 1815!
It was a beautiful thing to witness, even tho somewhat obscured by clouds.
I saw both charging fighter units smash into each other, and a viscious riding and saber swinging fight ensued.

As my escort is out-numbered 4:3, soon I see many RAF fighters Spits & Hurris attack the bomber formation.
It got hell-hot! with the bombers then. Hot enough that I put down my combat photography observer camera, and manned a machine gun!

I helped shoot down this one. He is being shot at by at least three other gunners. The Pilot Info gave me credit for this flamer, though.
Image

-- Initial Way Point.
Attack pressure from Dogleg to Initial Way Point gradually eases off, until only one Hurricane A and a smoking Hurricane B are still trying to attack bombers at Target.
I pick up my combat photography observer camera again, and also want to look at bomb damage assessment. Especially as the Ju88 Gruppe is still in column formation.

-- Target.
Before reaching Target, but close to it, still only the two afforementioned Hurris bothering us.

Heavy Flak starts erupting.
Image

Heavy Flak turning towards Egress Way Point. Southampton Flak ist scheisse holle!
I never saw any bombers fall from Flak this time. Later in review, only 2 were listed as destroyed.
Image

I take this photo of bomb damage assessment. Not good. Only the lead Ju88 Staffel scored a single hit on Itchen Factory. The other two Staffeln laid down bombs in trail behind and south of Target with no effect on open fields between the town and the river factories.
Sad results, but my fault in not lining up the air strike better, with approach more from the west.

Maybe you can see the gray dots in lines, here on the fields? Those are the bomb hits, I know. Laid in a "trail" pattern.
Image

-- Egress Way Point.
Only one Hurricane still buzzing around the bombers, and the Flak eases off gradually.

-- Just southwest of Isle of Wight.
I see a Spitfire A formation of 9 AC (Two of which are on fire!) and a Hurricane A formation of 4 AC coming at us. Also three Emils of the 3rd Staffel approaching bombers.
The Spitfires turn away from the bombers and head for home.
The Hurricanes attack the bombers, while the three Emils ignore this secondary attack from the Hurricanes that attacked once already at Dogleg,
and the three Emils form up above over the Raid and ignore the the Hurricanes.
"What? Them Emils got Fuel issues?"

-- Mid Channel.

Two more of JG27/III Attached escorts from 1st staffel join the Raid and ignore the 4 Hurris still trying to attack the bombers. Fuel issues?

A bit later I see the JG27/I Return escort arrive and take up Above position over the bombers. They also ignore the 4 Hurricanes that are still attacking us.
"What? The Return escorts ain't doing a damn thing to help us!"

A minute later... one of the Hurricanes shot my bomber down!
Maybe I do not understand how Return Escorts are supposed to behave? They did not behave very well this time!

-- ALT-X to 2D map.
I did not look at icons this time. Grumbling about Return Escorts.

-- Quit on next phase Start.

-- Diary.
KG54/I - 2 destroyed and 7 damaged, Claims 2 Spitfires, 1 Hurricanes.
JG27/III - 9 destroyed and 3 damaged, Claims 2 Spitfires, 9 Hurricanes.

-- Review.
Last phase it was: LW destroyed - 179 & RAF destroyed - 186
This phase it is:: LW destroyed - 195 & RAF destroyed - 206.
This phase LW lost 16 destroyed & RAF lost 20. A typical draw as far as casualties go.

-- Damage on Itchen Aircraft Factory:
Minimal. Only 1 more individual targets was damaged. I will have to bomb it again to insure it's destruction.


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Conclusions:

1. The fighters rendezvous with the bombers was successful. 32 successful rendezvous out of 36 Raids tried. (88.9% chance of success now)

2. The Emil escorts in the Attached role with level bombers still engage the RAF interceptors as they should when threatened. They have in all my tests.
Although they did not "double engage" RAF interceptors that they previously engaged at Dogleg, and saw again chasing us into Mid-Channel. Fuel issues?

3. Why did my Ju88 Gruppe use "Bomb In Trail, column formation" from the takeoff start, and I did not order them to do so?
And.. why did the Attached Escort also go into column formation with them?

4. I expected that one of the Return Escort Staffeln would engage the RAF AC following the Raid at mi-channel. None did though. :?:
Well, JG27/I from Plumetot was the Return escort Gruppe. They were Poor skill before this Raid, now they are Regulars. So that is good news.
They do not deserve to be Regulars in my opinion, tho. One of their Staffeln should have engaged the "return" threat, damn them!

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TigerMoth
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Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by TigerMoth »

Most excellent detailed testing Jeff!

Not only is it great info for whoever takes on this part of the code, but also continues to shows off how detailed and extensive BOBII really is! And with the pictures, it gives momentary lurkers like myself something to enjoy for now until I have time to get into it again!

Thanks for all the hard work!

John
----------------------------------
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ATI Radeon HD 5800 - 1GB Ram
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stickman
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Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by stickman »

TigerMoth de Brooklyn,

Some may say that I am obsessed with BoBII.
My wife would, but never said so exactly.
She thinks that when I am typing out BoBII reports,
I am sending love letters to some OTHER woman!

Truly I'm a bit obsessed with History.
History is my mistress that reaches for me at night,
when I lay me down to sleep,
and dream of the girls that I knew before,
knowing that my present wife is not perfect,
but better than the OTHERS.

--------------------------------------------------

Here are two more Reports. Both are Poor weather, and similar low level attacks on Brooklands Hawker Factory,
which I am having a hard time to destroy above 70%.
My Escorts are giving the RAF interceptors a heavy boot a$$-kicking in the air, though, these two attacks.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


15 July noon phase. Poor Weather.

Brooklands Hawker Factory. (I only have this important Hurricane assembly factory 50% destroyed. I need to knock it out better than 70% to insure total destruction)

Raid altitude at 2,000 feet under the Poor weather cloud cover.

KG2/II Do17 bombers. Veteran skill.
JG3/III Regular skill. Attached escort in Astern position.

-- Fighter Rendezvous Way Point.
Successful rendezvous. 33 successful rendezvous out of 37 Raids tried. (89.2% chance of success now)

-- Dogleg. (4 miles before reaching it)
Frag into a bomber, Eagle 3 With pop-up menu warning of interceptor attack.
Escort is behind or astern of us closely.

- 1st RAF threat of Hurricanes appears at same altitude as Raid on the starboard quarter. The 3rd Emil staffel engages it.
I see four AC hit the ground quickly, Hurricanes by label count.
- 2nd RAF threat of Spitfires appears above of Raid on the starboard beam. 1st Staffel engages it.
- 3rd RAF threat of Hurricanes appears high above of Raid on the starboard beam. 2nd Staffel engages it.
The Hurricanes never bother the bombers, but the Spitfires attack the bombers until Initial Way Point, where they fade away.

-- Target.
Just before Target, the Do17s change formation from the broad wing, and bunch up into a tight round disc. Good! To contrate bomb lay.
Image

Unfortunately most bombs were laid away from the remaining undestroyed targets in a an over-shoot. Only one oil tank destroyed.
Image

-- Egress Way Point.
I see two missing bombers. 8 Spitfires come at the bombers again in repeated attacks. No Emils seen.
During this I see 3 Spitfires destroyed by bomber gunners. 1 smoking Spit, too.
The RAF AI makes lazy attacks against the bombers from the Raid's rear, one.. then another.. then another single one.. etc.
and each single one flying in the bomber formation gets full and all of the bomber gunner's attention. They get butchered.
- Those Spitfires are beaten off of the Raid.
- Later.. 2 Spits and 2 Hurris show up chasing us.
Also 4 Emils from 3rd Staffel who join the Raid and ignore the nearby RAF fighters. (Low ammo issues? Should not be fuel issues?)
Spits shoot down a bomber. A single attacking Spit is shot down by concentrated gunner fire again. Another Spit starts smoking and fades away.

-- Fighter Dispersal Way Point.
All RAF are gone. I ALT-X to 2D.

Icons on map.
RAF:
Only one Interceptor type shows, 7/12. There are 3 Patrol type icons, all 12/12.
LW:
KG2/II (1) 8/10 (2) 9/10 (3) 7/10
JG3/III (1) 12/12 (2) 11/12 (3) 12/12

-- Diarys.
KG2/II - 4 destroyed 3 damaged. Claims: 5 Spitfires. (KG2/II Gruppe leader killed)
JG3/III - 1 destroyed 0 damaged. Claims: 5 Spitfires. (JG3/III Gruppe leader killed)

-- Review.
Last phase it was: LW destroyed - 195 & RAF destroyed - 206.
This phase it is:: LW destroyed - 201 & RAF destroyed - 223.
This phase LW lost 6 destroyed & RAF lost 17. The Raf took a beating in the air.

Damage on Brooklands was minimal and only one oil tank hit! Grrrr.

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Conclusions:

1. The fighters rendezvous with the bombers was successful. 33 successful rendezvous out of 37 Raids tried. (89.2% chance of success now)

2. The Emil escorts in the Attached role with level bombers still engage the RAF interceptors as they should when threatened. They have in all my tests.

3. I like the way that Do17s tighten up into a tight round disc just before bombing. I do not like bomb overshoot, though it occurs all to often. I am OK about over-shoot.

4. I built the Brooklands Hawker Factory, but not from historical maps or pictures.
It has 14 individual targets, and they are proving to be hard for level bombers to destroy all of them.
Targets that I made have many more individual target buildings in them than were in v2.11.
v2.11 Targets usually had a few huge warehouses that are easy to all destroy in one Raid. Unrealistic, and why I made my Targets with many and smaller objects,
in order to make it harder for the LW to totally destroy these Targets.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

15 July afternoon phase. Poor Weather.

Brooklands Hawker Factory. (I still have to hit this factory to insure total destruction. Proving to be hard to flatten!)

Raid altitude at 2,000 feet under the Poor weather cloud cover.

KG2/I Do17 bombers. Poor skill.
JG51/I Veteran skill. Attached escort in Astern position.

Note!
I also sent this Raid in at the same Target, 5 minutes later. I am not going to Frag in with this Raid.
KG2/III Do17 bombers. Poor skill.
JG51/II Poor skill. Attached escort in Astern position.

-- Fighter Rendezvous Way Point.
Successful rendezvous. 34 successful rendezvous out of 38 Raids tried. (89.5% chance of success now)

-- Dogleg. (4 miles before reaching it)
Frag into a bomber, KG2/I Hawk 2 With pop-up menu warning of interceptor attack.

- 1st RAF threat appears, Hurricanes on the starboard quarter at Raid altitude. The 1st Emil Staffel engages it.
Very soon I see 9 AC crashing into ground on this little battle. All Hurricanes as the labels show me.
- 2nd RAF threat appears, Hurricanes on the starboard quarter above Raid altitude. The 2nd Emil Staffel engages it.
This RAF threat attacks the bombers only once, and then are chased away by the 2nd Emil Staffel.

-- Target.
- 3rd RAF threat appears, Spitfires on the starboard bow high above Raid altitude. The 3rd Emil Staffel engages it.
- 4rth RAF threat appears, Spitfires on the starboard bow high above Raid altitude. (I think these are going after Raid #2, as I never saw them again in 3D)
All my Emil Staffeln are previously engaged, so cannot deal with them.
My 3rd Emil Staffel chases the 3rd Spit threat away, and I never see them again.

- I see the Do17s tighten up into a tight round disc just before bombing. They overshoot again, dammit! Only one more individual target destroyed.

- Egress Way Point.
No fighters RAF or LW seen. I can see the 2nd Do17 Raid approaching Target in long distance.
No KG2/I bomber losses.

-- Coast of England.
No RAF fighters seen. I see my 1st Emil Staffel come up on our aft and join us again. See one fighter missing from formation with them.

-- ALT-X to 2D soon after leaving England.

Icons after the RAF all turned back for home (on me), mid-channel:
RAF:
Only 3 showed that were chasing Raid 2. 11/12, 11/12, and 12/12.
LW:
No losses on Raid 1 bombers.
Raid 1 escorts - (1) 12/12 (2) 12/12 (3) 11/12.
Raid 2 escorts - (1) 10/12 (2) 10/12 (3) 9/12.

-- Diarys.

Raid 1 Bombers. No bomber losses or Claims. (Note: they go from Poor skill to Regular, and no leader loss)
Raid 1 JG51/I Emils. 1 destroyed 2 damaged. Claims: 1 Spitfire, and 15 Hurricanes! (Note: they go from Poor skill to Regular, and no leader loss)

Raid 2 Bombers. No bomber losses or Claims.
Raid 2 JG51/II Emils. 4 destroyed 3 damaged. Claims: 0 Spitfire, and 1 Hurricane.

-- Review.

-- Review.
Last phase it was: LW destroyed - 201 & RAF destroyed - 223.
This phase it is:: LW destroyed - 206 & RAF destroyed - 248.
This phase LW lost 6 destroyed & RAF lost 17. The Raf took another bad beating in the air. My ground strikes sucked!

Damage on Brooklands was minimal and only one little target hit. I will have to send in Stukas to get this job finished! As soon as I get fair weather and Regular skill escorts available.

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Conclusions:

1. The fighters rendezvous with the bombers was successful. 34 successful rendezvous out of 38 Raids tried. (89.5% chance of success now)

2. The Emil escorts in the Attached role with level bombers still engage the RAF interceptors as they should when threatened. They have in all my tests.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

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stickman
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Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by stickman »

16 July morning.

Brooklands Hawker Factory.

Note! The level bombers are having a hard time destroying all of the targets at this Target, to be above 70% destroyed.
I decide to send in a Gruppe of ME110s as dive bombers, which usually lay bombs with with better precision,
in hope that I can finish this target off!

Since it is Poor weather, with low cumulus cloud cover, I will adjust Raid altitudes, so that approach to Dogleg is at 6,000 feet.
Then to drop down to 2,000 feet at Initial Way Point. (better to see the target?)
Egress Way Point to 3,000 feet, then to Fighter Disperasal Way Point at 6,000 feet.

-- Planned order of battle:
ZG2/II from Le Havre. Regular skill, Excellent Morale. Dive Bombing.
JG51/III from St. Omer. Poor skill, Excellent Morale. Detached Escort, at High position. (Note! Attached escorts never work with ME110 bombers!)

-- Fighter Rendezvous Way point.
Succesful rendezvous! Now 35 of 39 Raids successfully rendezvoused. (89.7 % success rate)

-- Dogleg Way point.
3 miles after passing Dogleg, in 2D, I see a RAF Patrol type icon, which is 4 miles SE of Brooklands Target.
One minute later it approaches my Raid.

Another minute later, I get the "ZG2 has been intercepted!" pop up Frag option menu.

-- I Frag in with with the Tail End Charly ME110, Hawk 5.
1st RAF Hurricane Squadron seen. Not engaged by any LW units. Those Huurris fade away. I think those were the ones on Patrol.
Is the RAF now Patrolling Brooklands after I keep hitting it 3 phases in a row?
If so, that is good Campaign code AI behavior. I don't know?

- 2nd RAF threat, Squadron of Spitfires are seen. The 1st Detached Emil escorts engage it.

-- Initial Way Point.
The 2nd and 3rd Emils go to Patrol Way Points.

While still in Auto Pilot, I see only the 1st Emil Staffel engaging the 1st RAF Squadron Spitfires threat.

-- Target.
None of the ME110s attack the Target. "I cannot see the Target!" They all call. :evil: :roll:
Well.. ye damned fools, I can see it. I flick open up the bomb release button cover, and select all guns. Somebody has to attack the Target.
Manual control, and I go to the three (not yet destroyed) hangars that I know where are, as I was the one that placed them.
I see some Spitfires engaged by the 1st Emil and the 1st ME110 Staffeln.
I bomb hit the smaller hangar which know is a target building.
(The other larger hangars are not "real" targets and are actually just wood framed canvas covered dummies to fool the Germans!) :wink:

Image

I strafe one of the avgas tanks which are targets.
Image
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Doing so my windscreen is hit by Bofors!
Image

More RAF aircraft show up around Brooklands.
I ignore them and turn around and destroy the last little avgas tank.
Dodging 40mm Bofors fire. I placed 4 each (historical numbers for July 7, 1940 at Brooklands) 40mm Bofors guns just outside of the race track, all spaced well away from each other.
They do fire in game, and I don't want to be their only easy in reach target strafing Brooklands!

Image

Look around see 19+ Hurricanes and 2 Spitfires. Better start attacking air tartgets. I see all of the ME110s engaged already.
Image

I shoot one Hurricane down. Get close on the tail of another and run out of ammo.
Dammit. I practice too many deflection shots. Then when I get right behind an easy kill filling my sight, no more ammo. :oops:

-- ALT-X to 2D.

-- Diarys.
ZG2/II - 6 destroyed, 6 damaged. Claims: 0 Spit, 3 Hurri.
JG51/III - 12 destroyed, 7 damaged. Claims 0 Spit, 3 Hurri.

-- Review.
LW destroyed - 230. RAF destroyed - 258. LW lost 24 and RAF lost 10.

-- Brooklands Hawker Facotory now 10 of 14 targets destroyed and 1 target damaged. 71% destroyed so should be knocked out as to production?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Conclusions:

1. I know that Attached Emil escorts with ME110 bombers never do anything. Never engage any threats to the ME110s.
Detached escorts do work as escorts, and they did this time again as in all my tests. They certainly took a helluva lot of losses this Raid! Bless them.
Attached escorts would just leave for home after Patrol Way Points, and leave the ME110s to battle it out alone.

2. It is not too often that I have ME110 or Stuka dive bombers give me that damned "I cannot see the target!" bull crap. 5-7% of Raids tested since v2.05? It is stupid, and I don't like it.
Sometimes only one or two Staffeln will fail to make a bomb run because they cannot see with 20-20 vision.
Usually the 1st ME110 Staffel will jettison bombs and engage the 1st RAF threat, as well as the 1st Emil escort Staffel, if it is Detached.
The other two ME110 Staffeln will usually see and dive bomb the Target, if escorted by Detached Emils.

If any of you other folks hate this "I cannot see the Target!" crap, and believe that all LW pilots MUST have 20-20 vision in order to be accepted for flight school,
please stand up and speak out too, with me here, so that this nonsense may be stopped!
.... do I hear a thunderous CHEER! and the stomping of hundreds of boots in the hall? Demonstrators flooding the streets demanding changes!?

I know that our BDG coder is reading my reports here. Hell.. I'm the only one doing any v2.13 teasting now, so I know he has time to read them.
He might like some other opinions, not just mine.

We would both like some more BDG testers, if anyone is interested.
Might as well fly with beta v2.13 as it looks solid with no CTDs, and is more realistic as to Campaign, than any previous version, and has some better Docks terrain.

Jeez! I sound like a Navy Recruiter or some other kind of Salesman!

heinkill
BDG
Posts: 1878
Joined: 18 Sep 2005, 08:01

Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by heinkill »

Great after action reports Jeff!

Have sold my Win7 machine now so I am just a bystander until we can find a Win8 fix.

:cry:

H
Looking for BOB missions, campaigns, and historical resources?

http://bobgamehub.blogspot.com

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Racoon
Senior Airman
Posts: 192
Joined: 08 Feb 2009, 14:09

Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by Racoon »

What a coincidence stickman, I just reinstalled BOB this week and did a few campaign missions and had similar experiences as you mentioned above!

First, I sent in one Me-110 staffel with one detached and one attached Me-109 staffels to bomb Brook lands Hawker factory, but my raid was over as soon as RAF showed up, for the Me-110s dropped their load regardless of their escorting 109s! only one Me-109 staffel engaged the RAF.

For the next raid I sent one Me-110 staffel again but with 4 attached and 4 detached Me-109 staffels. We were met with 3 RAF squadrons, and although I had placed the escorts all around the Me-110s, they still dumped their load and engaged the RAF. Interestingly enough my raid of 96 Me-109s and 12 Me-110s could only shoot down 2 Spitfires and 1 Hurricane at the cost of 2 Me-109s and 3 Me-110s :shock:

In another raid we managed to get over the target but I got that "I can't see the target" message, I tried every thing I could to make them attack (as leader) including padlocking the ground target and using "attack my target" radio command while, at the same time, I dove on the target (with my entire staffle following me at tree top level), and released my bombs as the rest of Me-110s following and radioing: "I can't see the target" :shock:

In two occasions when we attacked air fields, all 12 Me-110s dropped their bombs on the same hanger that I had just bombed a minute ago :shock: (I usually dive ahead of the pack) I'm not sure if this happens only when attacking airfields or happens elsewhere as well.

On the plus side, at the beginning of a different campaign, I sent 9 Me110's to Brook lands Hawker factory on a low level (3000 feet!). To my surprise no RAF showed up and we flattened the entire place and left the area as fast as we came in, only to be chased by two RAF squadrons but it was too late for them to catchup with us and they gave up and returned half way to France :wink:

However, I noticed Brook lands Hawker factory has a very fast rate of recovery, the red cross representing "target destroyed" disappeared the next day and a day later the remaining red circle disappeared indicating the factory is back to it's full capacity again, Just after two days :shock:

Another issue I noticed is that when on auto pilot the fighters wouldn't shoot even if they come in perfect shooting position i.e 6 o'clock position at 200feet, regardless of the aircraft type, side (RAF or Luftwaffe) or mission (campaign or instant). They just chase the enemy without shooting one round!

two27
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1061
Joined: 17 Apr 2011, 20:02

Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by two27 »

Hi Racoon,

The LW intel system is causing the apparent confusion regarding target status. Two events can cause the intel to update. Morning recon flights and raids. Look at the target's dialog and see whether it says under Status. Intell: Current Status means the LW has a recent recon flight on the target. Intell: Unknown is saying there is no current intel available for that target.

If playing with Accurate LW intel set in the game's options, then you will always have current intel. This does not mean precise intel.

LW intel was notoriously poor, highly politicized, and often staffed with officers who weren't wanted doing anything important. They drastically overestimated kills on raids as well as bombing raid results. In the game there is a variances used for both current intel and unknown/not current intel. The variance for current intel is half that for bad intel (or in other words bad intel is twice as likely to be wide of the mark). In addition, for both intel types, there is a heavy bias to overestimate the damage state of a ground target.

Assume your intel staff is incompetent or so politically charged that they'll say anything to make Goering happy, then use your own judgement. When you have current intel on a target, you can make a much better guess. Also, when intel is current, you'll see text telling you if fighters were seen on that airfield; a key indicator if you are going after airfields.

Finally, fighter factories and related production does offer a solid (albeit non-historical) indicator of bombing effects. Go to Review-Enemy and check out RAF production. If you see it drop, then you know your raid was a success. If you see it drop and stay down for a couple days, this indicates a factory was put out of action. If it drops then recovers within a day, then you can be certain it wasn't destroyed.

There is a very good strategy for hitting the fighter factories, but I'm reluctant to post it and risk spoiling the fun of working it out. If you want it, post here and I'll reply.

Bear in mind dispersed production is live for RAF fighter factories. Even if destroyed, some of their production will be recovered over a period of about a month.

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stickman
BDG
Posts: 8754
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:17
Location: Oahu, Hawai'i

Re: beta Testing fixed LW Escort Rendezvous

Post by stickman »

Racccoon,

two27 wrote:
Assume your intel staff is incompetent or so politically charged that they'll say anything to make Goering happy, then use your own judgement.
This sentence RINGS with resounding Truth, not only in BoBII, but in the real world which we all struggle to live in and try to understand!
two27 is the kind of man that I do look up to. Most human creatures I have been with leave me cold. He is one that is better than me. I love him!

Maybe I can illustrate the "Don't depend on the Recon that is passed to your desk to be absolutely true" thought he has.
You actually have to look at the Recon photos yourself, and make your own judgement as to what is the reality.
There is an old saying.. "Never Trust Anybody!" Always good advice, even if you are not a paranoiac.
Another of my (old cowboy) favorite sayings is: "If you want to do something right, then you got to do it yourself!"

Case in point, with my current v2.13 LW Campaign.
I am currently attacking Brooklands Vickers Factory. I hit it on my last phase with a Gruppe of He111s, and see that it is "listed" as Critically damaged, with a red X on it.
Am I to assume that it is totally destroyed?
Nein! Show me the actual results with actual proof! I want see it for myself.
The USA State of Missouri has at it's State Motto: "Show Me!" Another good saying.
Of course US non-Missouri sailors call Missouri "Misery", and the "Blow Me" State! Ahh! .... Sailors have a dis-respect for landlocked folks that have never seen the world!

Sorry! Back to Intel for BoBII.
A Campaign Commander needs to see the evidence of Destroyed, Damaged, Impaired, or Functional status of individual targets at a Target. For himself.

Here is my current Brooklands Vickers results from last HE111 Raid.
Also, as I built this target to 1920's and 1930's aerial photographs, and how I built it for v2.12 as per the game DAT file for it.

Image

This Target is listed as Critically Damaged, and has a red X on it in the General menu page. Bullsheisse!

In the Damage menu page I see a closer inspection, which tells me a truer story.
I have 5/9 of Brooklands Vickers individual targets destroyed, damaged, or impaired. (56% of targets hit, and not all destroyed) Not good enough.
I must hit it again to put it truly down!

two27 told me that a Spitfire or Hurricane Assembly factory must be better than 70% destroyed to stop it's production of aircraft.
I think that this means that 70% or better of the individual targets within a Target, must be Destroyed.
The Damaged or only Impaired, individual targets may be repaired and do not count into the 70%.
70% of total destruction of all individual AC factory assembly targets is needed to snuff the Targets's flame out?

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