OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Battle of Britain "Wings of Victory"
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33lima3
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OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by 33lima3 »

This looks very promising:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/t ... ost4483567

Per reports, it seems to be working well in testing, and can at last cure the too-wide bomber formations as well.

Now if they can also (within recommended specs) get the aforementioned bomber formations up to something resembling gruppe strength by default, I could overlook (or even fix) the anachcronisms in the R/T chatter, the missing Dark Earth patch on the stock Hurricane schemes, and accept the limited (absent?) representation of Controllers.

Definitely this mod would be a big step in the right direction towards making WotR a credible sim of the Battle, and a decent second string or understudy to the undisputed champion, BoB2, compared to CloD where so much remains badly-implemented and the single player campaign and content, so limited compared to either BoB2 or WotR.
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

Scotters
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by Scotters »

How is WOTR doing now?

I would be interested if they could at least have the number of planes in the air that BOB II can. I don't understand with the graphics being as bad as they are, much worse than BOBII, why they can't have 100s of planes in the air like BOB II.

So for now my only Battle of Britain fix is CLOD Blitz, until WOTR gets better, or until our prayers are answered and BOB II is updated to work on Win 10.

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33lima3
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by 33lima3 »

Well I'm certainly not an unbiased observer, being by now thoroughly convinced of BoB2's overall (and considerable) superiority over all comers as a BoB air combat simulation experience (while conscious of what I find to be some significant shortcomings). And not having invested in WotR, I am only an observer thereof. But while things like the totally unacceptable stock map (eg no Solent!!!) now has a mod, these are the things which still put me off:

1. Raids generally seem to comprise between three and about a dozen bombers. So this is not the BoB, it's the Minor Skirmish of Britain. With that sort of limitation, the CloD approach to SP (a campaign of scripted missions) would actually be better, because by scripting, you could at least incorporate as many realistic sorties as possible, with the absence of big raids a little less noticeable - like interceptions of 'snoopers', single bombers doing photo, weather or armed recces or nuisance raids, typically in bad weather, or raids by ErprGr 210 or low-level specialists 9/KG76. Like CloD's stock RAF campaign, which starts with a raid similar to 9/KG 76's strike on Kenley - except that the CloD storyline was horribly cringeworthy - improved in the Redux version, which apparently also fixed some mission scripting issues;

2. As a consequence of 1, interceptors seem sometimes to outnumber raiders, who get massacred, while 109s seem to operate as semi-independent fours, way short of the usual Gruppe, like a sort of carry-over from WoFF's WW1 skies.

3. A high system spec in relation to 1, indicating the possibility that PC resources are mis-directed into stuff like 'helpful' advice in the HUD, carried over from WoFF; or the devs are simply ok with 'miniaturising' the BoB, and short of a big change, doing the same for a possible later 'Mighty Eighth' ('Puny Eighth' on this performance - B17-II got away with that because of its tight focus on the lead bomber). I'm VERY not ok with 'miniaturising' either campaign.

4. Until the formation mod is tested and working, bomber (and RAF fighter) formations are way too widely-spaced (again CloD is significantly better here, and may even be able to put up reasonably large bomber formations, without killing FPS);

5. R/T chatter is better than CFS3 but still limited compared to BoB2 (and even CloD). Also, it is often not well scripted, with some awful, counter-immersive anachronisms like 'Targeting enemy' or the redundancy-rich and unmilitary 'Attacking enemy target'. CloD is again better - if too quiet, also somewhat marred by intrusions from badly-scripted and unmilitary nonsense on the airwaves in support of a nonsense backstory (and calls that would be more suited to Paw Patrol, like [pass the sick bag] 'I'll fly your wing!') - but at least the capability is there in CloD, it's just badly implemented;

6. Insufficient attention to some other details, like a large splotch of Dark Earth missing on the stock Hurricane camo pattern, which also has some rather unconvincingly-non-wavy demarcation lines in places; Hurricane has DH spinner but Rotol blades; I don't think there is a negative G cutout with Merlins; swastikas are present but rather undernourished on 109s, and their canopies hinge open on a bailout, instead of jettisoning; Heinkels incorrectly have 'handed' supercharger intakes, instead of both on the same side (right for Jumo 111H, left for DB 111P IIIRC), and the front of the dorsal gunner's canopy is ugly, being noticeably too 'boxy';

7. Little or no representation of interaction with a Controller, a pretty big issue when playing RAF in a BoB sim;

8. Bailouts produce nearly instant 'chutes, with a max of two;

9. Multiskin capabilities don't seem to be to Il-2 '46, BoB2 or CloD standards in most respects;

10.109 missions seem to include rather too frequently either patrolling their own airspace, or strafing attacks.

The cockpits are really very nice, the visuals often very nice too (apart from some incorrect details as above). The dynamic shadows are very welcome, and the individual air combat may well be engaging despite the tiny scale, I don't know. The squadron-based campaign is also a very good feature, though I don't know how well historical issues are replicated, like a realistic proportion of Sgt pilots in RAF squadrons and the LW equivalent, or membership of flights staying reasonably constant subject to casualties and promotions or transfers, not changing nearly every sortie like it seemed to in WoFF. And all formations need to operate, not like WoFF's WW1 'flights', but as they do in BoB2, in gruppe strength for bomber raids (and mostly, for escorts too); and squadron strength (flying together, not A & B flights semi-independently, except for standing patrols) for the RAF.

I could accept the rest of the above (many of which are mod-able) if 1, 2 and 4, which I find immersion-killers and deal-breakers, were improved - without pushing min specs through the roof or FPS through the floor. Even a default raid strength of 20-30 I would find acceptable, with escorts on top of that, and the odd single bomber instead, from time to time.

Each to their own and the very best of luck to those who enjoy WotR, one of whom may well want to redress the balance here!
Last edited by 33lima3 on 11 Aug 2019, 08:20, edited 6 times in total.
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

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33lima3
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by 33lima3 »

Scotters wrote: 07 Aug 2019, 11:35 How is WOTR doing now?

I would be interested if they could at least have the number of planes in the air that BOB II can. I don't understand with the graphics being as bad as they are, much worse than BOBII, why they can't have 100s of planes in the air like BOB II.

So for now my only Battle of Britain fix is CLOD Blitz, until WOTR gets better, or until our prayers are answered and BOB II is updated to work on Win 10.
Hi Scotters

mind if I ask - assuming it's single player you mean - how you 'get your BoB fix' from CloD? Stock RAF campaign, or redux? Ditto for Luftwaffe? Any other user=made campaigns you'd recommend? Single missions? Swapping the aircraft in single missions for a bit of variety?

I'm not much of a fan of CloD single player - I only got it as I found the equivalent of a 'bargain bin' deal. It's a real Curate's Egg of rather good and really awful - and I would be keen for any tips to get the best out of it!
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

Scotters
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by Scotters »

There was a guy who made a dynamic campaign for CLOD Blitz, but now its off line. I used to play that. It was from a guy named, "the oden" lol. I actually discovered it through a review on Steam of CLOD Blitz. If you can find it, it does a great job of making CLOD Blitz single player a lot better, until those guys release an official dynamic campaign, which may still be far in the future. Here is the link to the forum discussion of oden's campaign, but unfortunately the links to download it are no longer working. I have version R6 downloaded, and I can email it to you if you would like. I wish I had downloaded version R 7 before it went offline.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/35 ... -blitz-r5/

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4417659/1

I still hope and pray that one day BOB II will work on Win 10.

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33lima3
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by 33lima3 »

Thanks Scotters. Would much appreciate emailing that campaign; as you say the links are broken and it's not amongst what's listed on the ATAG SP missions and campaigns page. PM sent! Many thanks!

It's a great pity that A2A are not amenable to letting GoG try to work their compatibility magic on BoB2.
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

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33lima3
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by 33lima3 »

Just to balance this off a bit, I now have WotR and the latest version (1.19 at time of typing) incorporates many improvements, including an ability for RAF leaders to make R/T requests to a Controller for vectors to potential targets. And at last I've seen a decent-sized raid, which if it becomes the default, would get WotR over that threshold.

Image

BoB2 still takes the crown for the most detailed, full-scale and realistic sim of the Battle, while CloD Blitz has lots of flyables and tries hard but succeeds very unevenly and has poor SP campaign content. I think WotR is now a real contender, able to provide the traditional pilot career that's not the main focus of BoB2 and isn't CloD's strong point.

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SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

Mickvet
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by Mickvet »

Looks good, Lima. You must have a Cray to get it running on those settings. I held off from buying it because I'd say I'm very under-powered.

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33lima3
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by 33lima3 »

I've a dual core i3 3.4Hz, a 1.5Gb Nvidia GTX580, and 8Gb of RAM, Mickvet, so I'm a bit over min spec except the GPU which is a bit under. I'm running on mid-to-high settings, including a couple which reduce the # of separate 'flights' in the air but 'bigger formations' activated so the ones I do see are the biggest available. ATM I think more tweaking to the campaign engine is needed so that you see gruppe-sized raids by default, not just sometimes. Also fewer or no non-convoy patrol missions and more scrambles instead.

I can get a slide show for a couple of seconds if several A/C from a squadron or so is attacking an equal or greater # of bombers at the same time, but otherwise it's playable. People with somewhat better systems also seem to get the same issue, as if rendering hundreds of tumbling spent .303 cases at the same time is causing an issue or something else that strikes in that situation. As turning down graphics settings doesn't help me with that I leave them where they are.

Apart from tracking down the source of that and tweaking default mission parameters for better scale/realism, there are still some rough edges, including 'chutes popping very fast, dropping as quickly, and always in closely-spaced pairs for multi-seat A/C. Spitfire Type B roundels are too small and it has the later elevator horn balances; and R/T traffic though mostly quite good has some modernisms like 'targeting' and redundancy like 'engaging enemy target' - though it's better written than CloD's 'I'll fly your wing!' Top Gun dialogues (not to mention the beyond awful campaign R/T gossip in CloD's SP RAF campaign). Still, I think WotR has turned a corner with the latest update and I'm enjoying my current campaign, flying Gordon Olive's YT-A with 65 Squadron, albeit we moved to Tangmere from Hornchurch in August instead of November.

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Last edited by 33lima3 on 19 Nov 2019, 14:33, edited 3 times in total.
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

Mickvet
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by Mickvet »

Thanks very much, Lima, for a very comprehensive answer. I know well where I stand now. I'm not that different from you, spec-wise, at all. I might think about it, although I can run BoBII and EAW trouble-free and without putting any strain on my pc or card. I like to monitor the temperature of my graphics card while playing and find that going towards the edge can lead to alarming temperatures. That would be my worry with this. The graphics you display in WOTR are mouthwatering, even superior in many ways to CLOD and this with obviously far superior gameplay. It's certainly great to be spoiled by so much choice. It all goes to show that the various upgraded vintage simulations from many years ago display far superior foundations to modern games which seem concentrated almost entirely on graphics and physics data to the detriment of atmosphere and storyline.

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33lima3
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by 33lima3 »

Mickvet wrote: 17 Nov 2019, 08:43 It all goes to show that the various upgraded vintage simulations from many years ago display far superior foundations to modern games which seem concentrated almost entirely on graphics and physics data to the detriment of atmosphere and storyline.
Amen to that!
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

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33lima3
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by 33lima3 »

Some recent pics from WotR, now at update 1.20:

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As with any sim, there's still some limitations, rough edges and room for improvement generally, which is being progressed in steady updates. Having played it for a while, the single-player experience is streets ahead of Cliffs of Dover and I would now definitely recommend Wings over the Reich.
SimHQ Battle of Britain II screenshots thread: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4481941/1
CombatAce Mission Reports: https://combatace.com/forums/forum/307-mission-reports/

Vox
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Re: OT - Wings over the Reich - WIP - tighter formations

Post by Vox »

I really admire OBD (old brown dog ), the developers of WOTR and WOFF (Wings Over Flanders Fields-WWI). Both sims are excellent, but they haven't stopped there- they continue improving. What I really find encouraging is that OBD have demonstrated a real
commitment to further development of immersive single player simulations. Vox

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