Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

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hampshireandy
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Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by hampshireandy »

So, i have equal fuel both wings, pilot and passenger same weight, no weather, ive not changed any settings in the cfg file yet as soon as i lift off my cherokee rolls(yaws) violently to the left. I have read several posts on here and im aware of the tendancies to roll to the left which is realistic but this is far too violent and unrealistic. It does the same even with the torque and realism settings set far right or left in FSX. It never used to be this bad, im not sure what is causing this.
Regards
Andy

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curtis72561
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by curtis72561 »

My 250 was doing this and I went to maintenance hanger and found an aileron damaged.
Beeachcraft V35 Bonanza, Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress, Cessna C-172 Skyhawk, Cessna C-182 Skylane, Curtis P-40, North American P-51D Mustang Civilian
North American AT6 Texan, Piper PA-28 Cherokee, Piper PA-24 Comanche, Piper J-3 Cub, Supermarine Spitfire

hampshireandy
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by hampshireandy »

Everything in good shape according to my hangar.
Andy

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Nick - A2A
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by Nick - A2A »

Hi Andy,

Have you made any changes to your system or your FSX installation recently? For example, controller changes or installing our free P-40?

Thanks,
Nick
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hampshireandy
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by hampshireandy »

Hi Nick, no nothing, could it be I'm rotating too late? With a half fuel laden cherokee, 1 passenger, no flap what would ideal rotation speed be? I usually rotate at 60 mph, is that too late?
Andy

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Nick - A2A
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by Nick - A2A »

I reckon it's more likely to be the opposite: trying to pitch up too firmly before the aircraft is ready to fly, and perhaps not applying sufficient right rudder to counteract the left turning tendency that will result.

However, I also recommend you check that the controls surfaces move through their full range, and are also properly centred when your yoke/joystick is.

Thanks,
Nick
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hampshireandy
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by hampshireandy »

OK Nick, will look into that and update you if still an issue.
Many thanks
Andy

alan CXA651
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by alan CXA651 »

Hi.
60 is to slow look at the airspeed indicator 50 to 65 is flaps needed 65 to 140 is safe flying speed green band flap safe speed range 50 to 115.
manual page 64 states stall speed as 64mph in normal config
Also what was your trim settings , elevator trim on roof panel , rudder trim between and below throttle/mix controls.
regards alan. 8)
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Nick - A2A
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by Nick - A2A »

alan CXA651 wrote: 02 Apr 2020, 06:36 60 is to slow look at the airspeed indicator 50 to 65 is flaps needed 65 to 140 is safe flying speed green band flap safe speed range 50 to 115.
Well, not really Alan - we can begin to raise the nose earlier than the speed that we actually want to go flying. The key is to do this gently rather than aggressively. Here's a quote from the manual: the key words here are "ease" and "fly itself".
Cherokee 180 Pilot's Manual wrote:Allow the airplane to accelerate to 50 to 60 miles per hour, then ease back on the wheel enough to let the airplane fly itself off the ground. Premature raising of the nose, or raising it to an excessive angle will result in a delayed take-off.
Thanks,
Nick
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alan CXA651
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by alan CXA651 »

Hi Nick.
I was assumeing from original post he got airbourn at 60 hence the roll , as you say , there is a lot of difference between lifting the nose up and letting the aircraft takeoff by its self as it reaches correct lift off speed , and forceing it airbourn to soon.
regards alan. 8)
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hampshireandy
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by hampshireandy »

Hi Nick and Alan, so yes if I rotate slightly later, around 60 mph I don't get the violent roll to the left. The problem then is I'm climbing out too fast, 90 + mph when I believe the climb speed should be around 75mph? Is 50 mph too slow to rotate?
The only way to slow the speed down is to climb at 1500 fpm which seems far too steep.
So how do I climb at a speed consistent with a sensible fpm in a lightly loaded aircraft.
Thanks again
Andy

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Nick - A2A
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by Nick - A2A »

Hi Andy,

Don't get too hung up on the idea of a precise 'rotate speed' in the Cherokee: it's not an airliner after all. Instead, as the airspeed passes through about 50 mph you want to be easing back on the control wheel and allowing the plane to fly off the runway when it's ready.

When it comes to the climb speed, 75 mph is actually the best angle of climb speed (VX) and with many aircraft, VX does produce a deck angle which can be a bit alarming for passengers if lightly laden. More typically you'd be aiming to climb out at closer to VY which is the best rate of climb. In other words, the speed at which you're gaining altitude as quickly as possible. Which of these two defined climb speeds puts most distance between you and the ground most quickly will depend on the elevation of the surrounding terrain. However, VY will usually be best for this unless you're forced to approach rising ground or some other obstacle such as a line of trees beyond the runway. Published VY in our Cherokee is 85 mph anyway.

Bear in mind these book figures are for max gross weight, so in a lightly loaded aircraft, climbing out at 90 mph or so isn't really a problem and will perhaps be closer to the actual best rate speed at your current weight.

Cheers,
Nick

P.S. All the above should be taken with the understanding that I'm not a real world pilot and that there are many others here much better qualified to advise on this stuff. :)
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hampshireandy
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by hampshireandy »

That is really helpful info Nick, looking forward to putting this into practice, many thanks.
Andy

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Nick - A2A
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by Nick - A2A »

You're welcome Andy.

A few reasons why carrying a little extra airspeed above VY isn't necessarily a bad thing is explained in this article by John Deakin. Worth a read if you have a few moments. The "Factors Climbing at Vx and Vy" section contains these paragraphs. The article mainly relates to higher performance aircraft than the Cherokee, but I think the points are worth considering nonetheless.
John Deakin wrote:
  1. If you are at Vx at very low altitude, you will be highly vulnerable in the event of an engine failure. The lower left corner of the above chart is shown below. That area in red approximates an area where an engine failure will put you in a pile of flaming wreckage in most Bonanza-type aircraft. The laws of physics simply say, “you’ll crash” from that position, and there’s nothing you can do about it. If you’re in a glider, or a Cessna 140, that area is very small, or non-existent.
    But in a 300 HP Bonanza, your nose will be high enough that you’ll need a near acrobatic maneuver to keep from stalling, you will lose some speed, you’ll need to get the nose well down to keep flying, and you won’t have the “energy” necessary to flare for the landing. Further, the average reaction time to an engine failure is four seconds. With the nose positioned for a Vy (or worse, Vx) climb, the pilot is afforded little or no margin above stall after accounting for this time.
  2. The nose is much higher, blocking forward view for the entire time at low speed. In other words, you cannot see where you’re going, leaving you helpless in avoiding bird strikes, including birds of the aluminum and composite type. (On the other hand, you may hit them at a slower airspeed. You’ll have to make the tradeoff.)
  3. That nose-high attitude also blocks your view of potential landing sites. If your engine fails your hands will be full of airplane for a time until you get the airplane and yourself under control. Only then will you be able to take a breath, and look for a soft spot, your first opportunity to do so. This limits your choices.
  4. Climbing steeply at slow IAS (indicated air speed) will cause the CHTs (Cylinder Head Temperatures) to rise more rapidly, to go higher, and remain there longer. It may be a minor point, but it’s a point nonetheless.
  5. Those passengers who are “nervous” do NOT like the nose-high attitude, and the fairly rapid transition to it that Vx and Vy climbs require. This is no small matter, and may in fact be the single largest reason to use a more gentle approach!
Thanks,
Nick
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hampshireandy
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Re: Cherokee rolls violently to left on take off-FSX

Post by hampshireandy »

OK so I'm letting it lift off slowly but as soon as airborne I still get that sharp roll/yaw to the left. I have the realism tab all the way to the left so if this is torque then why as the tab for that is left too.?
Andy

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