Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post any technical issues here. This forum gets priority from our staff.
new reply
JanF
Airman First Class
Posts: 83
Joined: 19 Oct 2018, 14:10

Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by JanF »

I have noticed that when making turns the ball initially moves so I need rudder to correct that. But then it moves back again. It can even move to the right when I am in a left turn.
Sometimes it seem that the ball does not move at all during turns. How should it be ? I use P3D 5.3

User avatar
DHenriques_
A2A Chief Pilot
Posts: 5711
Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
Location: East Coast United States

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by DHenriques_ »

JanF wrote: 07 Dec 2021, 16:36 I have noticed that when making turns the ball initially moves so I need rudder to correct that. But then it moves back again. It can even move to the right when I am in a left turn.
Sometimes it seem that the ball does not move at all during turns. How should it be ? I use P3D 5.3
From what you are saying it seems like you are entering some of your turns using too much rudder, some with not enough rudder, and some with the right amount of rudder.
Dudley Henriques

User avatar
Ron Attwood
Chief Master Sergeant
Posts: 3225
Joined: 30 Nov 2010, 10:07
Location: Chelmsford, Essex, UK

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by Ron Attwood »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 07 Dec 2021, 17:00 From what you are saying it seems like you are entering some of your turns using too much rudder, some with not enough rudder, and some with the right amount of rudder.
Dudley Henriques
Hey! That's the technique I use. :D
Eva Vlaardingerbroek, an inspiratiom.

User avatar
MkIV Hvd
A2A Mechanic
Posts: 1214
Joined: 11 Mar 2019, 21:36
Location: CYYC

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by MkIV Hvd »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Rob Wilkinson
A2A: Civilian Mustang, T-6, Bonanza, Comanche, Cub, C182, Spitfire, P-40, Cherokee, P-51 - VATSIM P4 and some other stuff...

User avatar
AKar
A2A Master Mechanic
Posts: 5208
Joined: 26 May 2013, 05:03

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by AKar »

JanF wrote: 07 Dec 2021, 16:36 I have noticed that when making turns the ball initially moves so I need rudder to correct that. But then it moves back again. It can even move to the right when I am in a left turn.
Sometimes it seem that the ball does not move at all during turns. How should it be ? I use P3D 5.3
The initial move you notice is caused by adverse yaw ("aileron braking" as the effect is quite well named in some languages). After you center the aileron when having achieved the desired bank, this effect goes away. What remains is the slight residual sideslip into the turn. There are some distinct causes to that but they are not too important for casual flying, as the relative magnitude of these "components" vary. As a result, most light aircraft that I know how they fly require a slight in-turn rudder input and slight out-turn aileron input in a steady-state, shallow-medium bank turn.

Why you find this puzzling I believe is that, in my experience, many FSX/P3D aircraft, addons included, tend to exaggerate the amount of in-turn rudder required during a steady turn, in particular at higher bank angles. Perhaps A2A Comanche not so much.

-Esa

JanF
Airman First Class
Posts: 83
Joined: 19 Oct 2018, 14:10

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by JanF »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 07 Dec 2021, 17:00
JanF wrote: 07 Dec 2021, 16:36 I have noticed that when making turns the ball initially moves so I need rudder to correct that. But then it moves back again. It can even move to the right when I am in a left turn.
Sometimes it seem that the ball does not move at all during turns. How should it be ? I use P3D 5.3
From what you are saying it seems like you are entering some of your turns using too much rudder, some with not enough rudder, and some with the right amount of rudder.
Dudley Henriques
I don't think that could always be the case. I have for example entering a standard 2 minutes turn without touching the rudder pedals. Still the ball was always centered. A faster or steeper turn made the ball move somewhat.
Is a more steep turn then standard required ? Or does how fast I turn affect this ?

FlipS
Senior Airman
Posts: 128
Joined: 15 Oct 2013, 04:47

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by FlipS »

It's a balance between bank and speed. The airplane geometry also plays a small role. Try different speeds and you will experience different behavior of the ball. Try the J-3, try a jet; you will always experience different behavior.

User avatar
DHenriques_
A2A Chief Pilot
Posts: 5711
Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
Location: East Coast United States

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by DHenriques_ »

JanF wrote: 09 Dec 2021, 15:35
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 07 Dec 2021, 17:00
JanF wrote: 07 Dec 2021, 16:36 I have noticed that when making turns the ball initially moves so I need rudder to correct that. But then it moves back again. It can even move to the right when I am in a left turn.
Sometimes it seem that the ball does not move at all during turns. How should it be ? I use P3D 5.3
From what you are saying it seems like you are entering some of your turns using too much rudder, some with not enough rudder, and some with the right amount of rudder.
Dudley Henriques
I don't think that could always be the case. I have for example entering a standard 2 minutes turn without touching the rudder pedals. Still the ball was always centered. A faster or steeper turn made the ball move somewhat.
Is a more steep turn then standard required ? Or does how fast I turn affect this ?
Believe it or not that little black ball in the tube is the most accurate instrument on the panel.
Simply put, ANYTIME the tail of the airplane isn't perfectly aligned with the nose in maneuvering flight that ball will be out of the doghouse. This will happen regardless of your airspeed or how fast or slow you enter and exit a turn.


Specific aircraft in the sim are more prone to adverse yaw than others, and controllers are not always calibrated perfectly.
Dudley Henriques

User avatar
Oracle427
Chief Master Sergeant
Posts: 3916
Joined: 02 Sep 2013, 19:30
Location: 3N6
Contact:

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by Oracle427 »

As noted, the type of plane, the airspeed, power, attitude and magnitude of control inputs all play a part. If you gently roll into and out of a turn, you will experience very little adverse yaw vs doing so with greater inputs.

There is an exercise I like to do with aircraft I am unfamiliar with or haven't flown in some time. My instructor introduced it to me very early on when learning to fly. He called it a rider coordination exercise.

You can and should do this at various speeds and power settings and with varying degrees of control inputs.

Pick a distant and easily recognizable point on the horizon and point the nose of the aircraft at it.
Roll to the right with coordinated inputs as required to keep the point fixed on the nose.
As soon as you reach 30 degrees of bank roll to the left
Repeat a couple of times and feel out the aircraft response and do whatever you need to do to keep that point stationary on the nose.

Try this at different speeds and power settings and configurations.
Flight Simmer since 1983. PP ASEL IR Tailwheel
N28021 1979 Super Viking 17-30A

User avatar
AKar
A2A Master Mechanic
Posts: 5208
Joined: 26 May 2013, 05:03

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by AKar »

Oracle427 wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 11:11 There is an exercise I like to do with aircraft I am unfamiliar with or haven't flown in some time. My instructor introduced it to me very early on when learning to fly. He called it a rider coordination exercise.

You can and should do this at various speeds and power settings and with varying degrees of control inputs.

Pick a distant and easily recognizable point on the horizon and point the nose of the aircraft at it.
Roll to the right with coordinated inputs as required to keep the point fixed on the nose.
As soon as you reach 30 degrees of bank roll to the left
Repeat a couple of times and feel out the aircraft response and do whatever you need to do to keep that point stationary on the nose.

Try this at different speeds and power settings and configurations.
In the glider world there is another exercise that I find useful - that is, over/under-banking.

This is, to bring your pitch attitude and/or velocity trend where you want it to be by banking, not by pulling or pushing. In the physics sense, this tends towards the optimal as you roughly maintain your (hopefully well-picked) trim-AoA by your 'bout constant pull, or lack thereof. As a bonus, this makes one sensitive to the transients! When to kick, when to pull or push and relax, and so on.

But more relevantly, it makes one sensitive on how the ball is affected by all the rudder, the aileron and even the elevator.

Further, this introduces one into the concept that, no, the bank angle does not at all affect the stall speed, mostly your pull does!

This does not directly apply, however, to airplanes with other than direct stick-to-elevator displacement ratio. That is, mostly mechanical.

-Esa

JanF
Airman First Class
Posts: 83
Joined: 19 Oct 2018, 14:10

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by JanF »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 10:53
JanF wrote: 09 Dec 2021, 15:35
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 07 Dec 2021, 17:00

From what you are saying it seems like you are entering some of your turns using too much rudder, some with not enough rudder, and some with the right amount of rudder.
Dudley Henriques
I don't think that could always be the case. I have for example entering a standard 2 minutes turn without touching the rudder pedals. Still the ball was always centered. A faster or steeper turn made the ball move somewhat.
Is a more steep turn then standard required ? Or does how fast I turn affect this ?
Believe it or not that little black ball in the tube is the most accurate instrument on the panel.
Simply put, ANYTIME the tail of the airplane isn't perfectly aligned with the nose in maneuvering flight that ball will be out of the doghouse. This will happen regardless of your airspeed or how fast or slow you enter and exit a turn.


Specific aircraft in the sim are more prone to adverse yaw than others, and controllers are not always calibrated perfectly.
Dudley Henriques
How should the controllers be calibrated for A2A planes ? How can I determine if they are right ?

User avatar
DHenriques_
A2A Chief Pilot
Posts: 5711
Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
Location: East Coast United States

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by DHenriques_ »

JanF wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 11:12
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 10:53
JanF wrote: 09 Dec 2021, 15:35

I don't think that could always be the case. I have for example entering a standard 2 minutes turn without touching the rudder pedals. Still the ball was always centered. A faster or steeper turn made the ball move somewhat.
Is a more steep turn then standard required ? Or does how fast I turn affect this ?
Believe it or not that little black ball in the tube is the most accurate instrument on the panel.
Simply put, ANYTIME the tail of the airplane isn't perfectly aligned with the nose in maneuvering flight that ball will be out of the doghouse. This will happen regardless of your airspeed or how fast or slow you enter and exit a turn.


Specific aircraft in the sim are more prone to adverse yaw than others, and controllers are not always calibrated perfectly.
Dudley Henriques
How should the controllers be calibrated for A2A planes ? How can I determine if they are right ?
Each controller will act differently so there really is no standard. The best thing to do is to simply make sure your controllers are calibrated correctly and check for axis conflicts (duplicate assignments).
Believe it or not the final contributor to a stable controller is YOU and the way you use the controller. Turns for example can be smooth or not so smooth based completely on how gentle you are while using the controller.
Remember.......even in a simulator.....just like in the actual plane, you fly the airplane using gentle pressures on the controls.
Dudley Henriques

JanF
Airman First Class
Posts: 83
Joined: 19 Oct 2018, 14:10

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by JanF »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 12:26
JanF wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 11:12
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 10 Dec 2021, 10:53

Believe it or not that little black ball in the tube is the most accurate instrument on the panel.
Simply put, ANYTIME the tail of the airplane isn't perfectly aligned with the nose in maneuvering flight that ball will be out of the doghouse. This will happen regardless of your airspeed or how fast or slow you enter and exit a turn.


Specific aircraft in the sim are more prone to adverse yaw than others, and controllers are not always calibrated perfectly.
Dudley Henriques
How should the controllers be calibrated for A2A planes ? How can I determine if they are right ?
Each controller will act differently so there really is no standard. The best thing to do is to simply make sure your controllers are calibrated correctly and check for axis conflicts (duplicate assignments).
Believe it or not the final contributor to a stable controller is YOU and the way you use the controller. Turns for example can be smooth or not so smooth based completely on how gentle you are while using the controller.
Remember.......even in a simulator.....just like in the actual plane, you fly the airplane using gentle pressures on the controls.
Dudley Henriques
I forgot to mention that I have TM Hotas Warthog and the CH Rudder pedals

User avatar
DHenriques_
A2A Chief Pilot
Posts: 5711
Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
Location: East Coast United States

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by DHenriques_ »

JanF wrote: 31 Dec 2021, 08:55
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 12:26
JanF wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 11:12

How should the controllers be calibrated for A2A planes ? How can I determine if they are right ?
Each controller will act differently so there really is no standard. The best thing to do is to simply make sure your controllers are calibrated correctly and check for axis conflicts (duplicate assignments).
Believe it or not the final contributor to a stable controller is YOU and the way you use the controller. Turns for example can be smooth or not so smooth based completely on how gentle you are while using the controller.
Remember.......even in a simulator.....just like in the actual plane, you fly the airplane using gentle pressures on the controls.
Dudley Henriques
I forgot to mention that I have TM Hotas Warthog and the CH Rudder pedals
Standard stuff really. I've used both. One thing I did learn early was not to use the Thrustmaster drivers. I found calibrating in Windows and setting up in the simulator has always worked well for me. The only time I've had issues (and I've just gone through some of these recently) have been the times when I have installed a manufacturer's driver for a controller.
Just my personal preference.
DH

JanF
Airman First Class
Posts: 83
Joined: 19 Oct 2018, 14:10

Re: Is this correct behavior of the attitude ball

Post by JanF »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 31 Dec 2021, 11:52
JanF wrote: 31 Dec 2021, 08:55
DHenriquesA2A wrote: 29 Dec 2021, 12:26

Each controller will act differently so there really is no standard. The best thing to do is to simply make sure your controllers are calibrated correctly and check for axis conflicts (duplicate assignments).
Believe it or not the final contributor to a stable controller is YOU and the way you use the controller. Turns for example can be smooth or not so smooth based completely on how gentle you are while using the controller.
Remember.......even in a simulator.....just like in the actual plane, you fly the airplane using gentle pressures on the controls.
Dudley Henriques
I forgot to mention that I have TM Hotas Warthog and the CH Rudder pedals
Standard stuff really. I've used both. One thing I did learn early was not to use the Thrustmaster drivers. I found calibrating in Windows and setting up in the simulator has always worked well for me. The only time I've had issues (and I've just gone through some of these recently) have been the times when I have installed a manufacturer's driver for a controller.
Just my personal preference.
DH
I find the information that 'No driver is required or have been loaded. So it seem clear that I am not using Thrustmsters driver

new reply

Return to “Piper Comanche 250 Tech Support”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests