question about oil clean kit

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Mustang01
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question about oil clean kit

Post by Mustang01 »

This may be a question for scott or lewis but how exactly does the real oil clean kit on the t6 work? I understand it catches oil but in terms of how it attaches..is it a kit that is installed on the engine ( where after flight you just "plug in the can" or does one have to pull the bottom plugs and run a hose into the clean kit container? I understand why its used and what it does but im wondering how this system actually works on the real 1340? Is there an actual modification under the cowl to where you plug in the hose and can (what we see on our accusim bird)?
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AKar
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by AKar »

I'm quite sure it would require that you screw off the plugs. That would be just about the only hole into the cylinder that is readily accessible. Likely a purpose-built kit has a hose adapter that fits the plug thread.

-Esa

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Piper_EEWL
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Piper_EEWL »

AKar wrote:I'm quite sure it would require that you screw off the plugs. That would be just about the only hole into the cylinder that is readily accessible. Likely a purpose-built kit has a hose adapter that fits the plug thread.
Yes I think so too. Otherwise you'd have compression issues if there's a hole in the cylinder :wink: . But maybe there are modified cylinder heads that have another opening for the oil clean kit!? I find it hard to believe that one would have to remove a spark plug to install it every time. Especially that you shouldn't screw anything into the cylinder head when it is still warm. This would mean you'd have to let the engine cool down every time before installing the oil clean kit...
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AKar
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by AKar »

Could be, but I doubt it. It would be difficult engineering for very little gain. If there was a valve, it would live quite rough life for one! :) In overall, airplane plugs tend to be far easier to remove/install than they are in many cars for instance. I don't know about radials, though.

-Esa

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Piper_EEWL
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Piper_EEWL »

Yes I also think that a valve is unlikely. But maybe a thread that has a screwed on cap on it? That would be easier. I mean after all they don't take the cowling off to install the oil clean kit. And I think you would have to do that in order to get the spark plugs out.

Also if you tighten one of the plugs to tight or damage the thread in the cylinder head otherwise it's going to be a very expensive repair. And taking the plugs out and putting them back in all the time is not going to make the threads last forever.
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Bomber_12th
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Bomber_12th »

The oil clean kit is a modern setup, designed for both the R-985 Wasp Jr. and R-1340 engines. It consists of a re-designed sump plug drain valve that replaces the original P&W PN 20126 plug on those engines. On the R-1340 (T-6), it is installed on the forward drain sump. Most, if not all, T-6's already have an access door just below this location, so owners have the option of either leaving the access panel as-is (which you would have to undo four screws every time to open it), or drill a 1" hole through it for easier access to the sump plug drain. There is a specially-designed valve key that then inserts into the drain sump by screwing it in - once screwed-in, the drain sump valve is open (you will of course have this valve key connected to some hose and run to a 1-gallon can).

The great thing about this system, as we all known from this Accu-Sim product, is that the oil that is retrieved via this system can be returned directly to the oil tank. Of course the reason for the kit is to allow the warm rocker oil to drain out after engine shut down, thus preventing it from seeping into the lower cylinder combustion chambers through the valve guides. (Even if you use the kit, however, you should still be pulling the prop through before every engine start.)

This is the setup on one of the locally-based Texans.

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John Terrell

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Piper_EEWL
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Piper_EEWL »

Thanks for that explanation John. So the oil clean kit does not connect to the combustion chamber but does drain the oil from the crank case? So it's not running through the valve guides into the cylinder? Well that is interesting. So you don't have to worry about the combustion pressure.
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AKar
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by AKar »

Yes, thanks for your pics and explanation!

The radials are big unknown to me, very interesting to start studying something new. I already feel dumb - while if you get some oil into the cylinders, it obviously needs to be removed via spark plug hole (or another access if there is such), but there of course needs to be means in place to normally avoid this from happening, also when the engine is running. The R-985 lubrication system differs from the one in general aviation Lycosaurus in several ways, it appears. One is that there are separate drain sumps which collect the scavenge oil - and of course, there is an oil tank instead of functionally just using the bottom of the case as such.

That forward drain plug connects into main case scavenge sump into which the oil from the crankcase and from the engine in general drains (the other one is for the rockerbox scavenge oil). This oil is returned into the oil tank by scavenge pump. The "oil clean kit" apparently plugs into this sump, to prevent it from filling up when the scavenge pump is not in operation.

I lack any good schematic of the system - this is what I don't understand: In the simulation, installing of the oil clean kit appears to be a cure to the oil lock in a cylinder whereas to me, it appears to be a preventive measure. I don't readily see how the oil clean kit could do much anything about the oil that has been already entered the cylinders, for it drains an entirely different location.

Was I misled by the simulation? :mrgreen:


Edit:

This site mentions the forward drain would be for main scavenge and rear one for the rockerboxes. In the R1340 it is supposedly the opposite.

-Esa

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Piper_EEWL
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Piper_EEWL »

Yes from how I understand the system works the oil clean kit would not get rid of oil that has already entered the combustion chamber. And if recall Kermit Weeks Kermie Cam of the T-6 correctly he says that in order to remove a hydraulic lock the sparkplugs need to be removed and the oil needs to drained that way from the cylinders.

Good stuff!
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Mustang01
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Mustang01 »

Ok that makes sense to me...i used to work with T6's every day for 4 1/2 years and we never once used the oil clean kit. I practically grew up around these birds and have about 55 hours in one and have NEVER seen any of ours on the field use an oil clean kit. Now granted, it was a company that did rides/training in the planes so they never sat idle for very long, in most cases getting flown once a day. We just turned the props through...although we went 9 blades instead of 5. Good insight guys thanks for the replies.
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Jacques
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Jacques »

I've only seen the clean kit used for radial-engined aircraft that may sit for extended periods. I have seen this for a few different aircraft at my local airport that fly very infrequently. I had some pictures, but they must be on a disk that has gone missing. Pretty neat idea, and you still want to pull the prop through.

Bomber_12th
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Bomber_12th »

From what I've read, by using this setup, you'll actually start collecting warm rocker oil within 10-15 minutes after engine shut-down. The oil that you collect via this system could have otherwise collected in the lower combustion chambers and be blown/burned out the exhaust at engine startup, and thus it is a money-saving device as well, as you're able to collect that oil and put it back in the tank.
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AKar
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by AKar »

Does anyone have a good link to a collection of R-985 data, engineering data or anything even distantly similar to the DACo's Lamm's? I'm not quite figuring out certain traits of the engine, and I'm not going to dissect those out from the parts catalogue unless I absolutely need to, and not sure I could be able to without seeing the engine live. :?
  • ↬ The oil passes through a check valve after it has passed the strainer. The maintenance data suggests that this "prevents the oil from seeping into or out of the engine" - a curious two-way usage for, by-definition, a single-way part? What's the function of that one? Where it is, physically? They wrote stupid manuals back then already? :mrgreen: No, what would push the oil if there wasn't the spring force to overcome? Most certainly the gravity, so the location of this part would be important.

    ↬ To which one of those sumps the oil clean kit is actually connected? To the main sump or to the rockerbox sump, on an R-985? I find conflicting statements...

    ↬ I only got some very poor resolution, bad-in-color scans of the oil flow diagram. Does anyone know a higher-quality data readily available?
That's for starters.. :D

-Esa

Tomas Linnet
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Tomas Linnet »

where is that "engineering explained" YouTube dude when you really need him??? :mrgreen:
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Bomber_12th
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Re: question about oil clean kit

Post by Bomber_12th »

Just for clarification, the engine on the T-6 is the R-1340, not the R-985, so a more specific discussion on the R-985 may be best handled/seen elsewhere.

Both engine types have two oil drain plugs (located between cylinders 5 & 6), below the main oil sump assembly. The front drain plug on the R-1340 accesses the rocker-box scavenge oil sump while the rear drain plug accesses the engine main case scavenge oil sump - so for the R-1340 (thus all T-6's), if you have the oil recovery ("clean") kit setup, this replaces/connects to the front plug. This arrangement is opposite on the R-985, with the front drain plug accessing the engine main case scavenge oil sump and the rear drain plug accessing the rocker-box scavenge oil sump - so with the R-985, the oil recovery ("clean") kit setup replaces/connects to the rear-most plug instead.

This photo shows the clear separation between the front plug (bottom left) and rear plug (bottom right) on an R-1340 oil sump. If you look at the bottom cowl of a T-6, there are two separate access panels to access each drain plug individually, due to how far they are spread apart.
http://projectwarbird.com/wp-content/up ... 556861.jpg

By contrast, here is an R-985 oil sump, and the front/rear plugs are side-by-side (left-side of photo is front, with both plugs located behind the engine as/when installed).
http://projectwarbird.com/wp-content/up ... 745272.jpg

This photo shows an R-985 powered Stearman with the oil recovery ("clean") kit setup hooked-up, attached to the rear-most plug (accessing the rocker-box scavenge oil sump), opposite that to the R-1340 (T-6).

Image


BTW, in the T-6 photos I posted earlier in this thread, that is a special/custom setup that you can purchase from Aircorps Aviation (if they still have any more) - if you already have the NATA or Covington fitting for the oil recovery ("clean") kit setup, Aircorps designed a special handle that screws into the fitting, together with specially-modified can with hose and strap.
John Terrell

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