T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

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bobsk8
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by bobsk8 »

Been many years since I flew with FSX. Aren't there some realism settings besides auto rudder that could be misadjusted?
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Oracle427
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by Oracle427 »

Hey there, I won't be able to do a detailed review of all control mappings until the weekend, but what I can say is that all sliders are at max realism and sensitivity will null zones to 0.

I am seeing instability in the rollout only when the tailwheel is off the ground or the stick is held forward.

If I allow the plane to yaw to one side with the stick neutral or forward then yes it will gradually yaw at an increasing rate.

What I am observing is that I can eliminate this tendency merely by holding the stick back with the tail down no matter what speed I am at. There is no tendency to ground loop with the tailwheel locked with power, without power, at various speedsm etc.

I am trying to determine if I have an issue with my controls or configuration that causes the airplane to behave like a tricycle gear plane when the stick is held back with the tailwheel locked?

If you are rolling down the runway at speed in a three point attitude at a fast clip, at idle power with the stick held back and then stomp the right rudder and right brake and allow the airplane to yaw 5+ degrees off to the right and then release the right brake and rudder, does the yaw rate slow down and stop or continue to increase? The key is to hold the stick full back throughout this test.

Alan CXA651, if you try a fast taxi for test #2, does the aircraft regain control and track straight on it's own with no further corrective action? Let's say greater than 40 mph and then set idle power and conduct the test. I can take my feet off the rudder and it will not ground loop.

If I do the same as per your first test, then I'm going for a ride! :)
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alan CXA651
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by alan CXA651 »

Hi Bob.
Yes there is more realism settings other than auto rudder , but they would not effect the tail wheel / rudder , except maybe P factor to a small degree.
This problem sounds like , either auto rudder / or control conflict type of issue , or the controllers pots feeding back through a short , in the cables of the controllers , or as happened to my CH rudder peddles a couple of times , a wire coming of a brake pot , this caused a few weired issues on ailerons every time brake was pressed.
regards alan. 8)
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alan CXA651
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by alan CXA651 »

Hi Oracle.
Stick neutral or back should lock tail wheel to rudder , stick fwd disconnects tail wheel from rudder , to make the tail wheel a castor for turning on the spot .
The faster you go down the runway applying the L/R brakes will or should cause ground looping , i usually let the aircraft slow down on its own before i use the brakes , which ideally should only be used at taxi speed.
I was a bit faster than normal during my testing , to see what would happen , had i kept the brakes on for to long , i would have ground looped or nosed over.
If you have like me CH controllers , they come with a program manager , that allows you to test the controllers outside of the sim.
I have in the past had Saitek yoke/throttle units , and they had a means to test outside of the sim , but dont know if the present controllers do.
regards alan. 8)
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by Oracle427 »

Any T6 pilots here that can comment? I would not expect the locked tailwheel to be able to correct for a loss of control like this. I'm thinking controls setup is not the issue given the other test results being reported.
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MkIV Hvd
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by MkIV Hvd »

Oracle427 wrote: 29 Oct 2019, 17:40 Any T6 pilots here that can comment? I would not expect the locked tailwheel to be able to correct for a loss of control like this. I'm thinking controls setup is not the issue given the other test results being reported.
In the real T-6 there is no way that the tailwheel steering alone can correct for a yaw swing that has gone far enough to be an incipient ground loop...trust me!
In the sim, my Harvard has been very well behaved lately....but I was hoping it was just me... :wink:
I want to go try it in the sim this evening to see if I can recreate your scenario...and try not to hurt anything in the process!
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by bobsk8 »

MkIV Hvd wrote: 30 Oct 2019, 08:47
Oracle427 wrote: 29 Oct 2019, 17:40 Any T6 pilots here that can comment? I would not expect the locked tailwheel to be able to correct for a loss of control like this. I'm thinking controls setup is not the issue given the other test results being reported.
In the real T-6 there is no way that the tailwheel steering alone can correct for a yaw swing that has gone far enough to be an incipient ground loop...trust me!
In the sim, my Harvard has been very well behaved lately....but I was hoping it was just me... :wink:
I want to go try it in the sim this evening to see if I can recreate your scenario...and try not to hurt anything in the process!
I discovered something a couple of weeks ago that has me using wheel landings almost all the time. Once I touch down, I use very light brake taps to hold the nose straight using my CH pedals. I find that when doing this, even the slightest yaw can be quickly and easily corrected. Once the tailwheel touches down, easily controlled with rudder. Haven't had a ground loop in weeks. :D I have thought that maybe my light appications of braking, is resulting in minor movement of the rudder itself which could be possible,
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by MkIV Hvd »

Oracle427 wrote: 28 Oct 2019, 10:20 Do I'm going the T6 and doing patterns and find that the ground handing is like a tricycle gear.
I think the behavior of my Harvard falls somewhere in between what you're describing and the full blown, out of control, wing tip destroying, ground looping potential of the real thing. I'd noticed before (FSX:SE btw) that the airplane will slew with screeching tires out into the weeds quite easily, but won't actually go around. It does require correction though...if you just relax or center the rudder it will keep going sideways. It seems to me that I read in another forum (Spitfire?) about the inability to replicate a wingtip dragging 360 degree groundloop. I could be wrong, but I think the discussion was about how the P3D Spitfire's ground handling had been made more realistic with the latest update, so I'm wondering also if the T-6 handling is more finicky in P3D as well.

If yours just straightens itself out when you take your hands off with the tail up or down it seems to me that there might be an issue somewhere else...not the faintest idea what that could be though......
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by Oracle427 »

It only straightens out if I hold the stick back. Even if the tires are screeching and side loaded, the airplane will self correct if I let everything go to normal except for stick full back.

If I let go of the stick as well, it will continue to go right around and not self correct.

So my issue of just with the way the locked tail wheel is able to correct a loss of control when I hold the stick full back.

It is squirrelly with the tail up or the stick held neutral.
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MkIV Hvd
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by MkIV Hvd »

Ah ok, I didn't try that but now I understand that in that case you're not steering with the tailwheel, just leaving it locked with the rudder pedals neutral? I'll have to try that...
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Nick - A2A
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by Nick - A2A »

Guys,

I reinstalled the T-6 in FSX and did a comparison between the original release from back in Mar 2016 and the updated version. As far as I can tell, the ground handling is unchanged.

To me, it does appear to feel a bit more forgiving than what I recall from when I first tried the aircraft as a customer. However, back then I didn't own rudder pedals so had to make do with a twisty joystick for rudder control. Hopefully a bit of practice has helped too.

With the stick held back, my observations pretty much correspond to Oracle's. With the tailwheel controlled rather than in its free-castoring mode, only pretty serious mishandling of the rudder and/or a stiff crosswind will tend to cause loss of directional control. No doubt this is a bit more forgiving than the real aircraft, but the T-6 pushes the FSX ground handling well beyond what's possible by default. I think a degree of compromise is probably to be expected too, to make the product usable by those with differing levels of hardware.

Having recently installed the IL-2 Great Battles series, it's interesting for me to compare the ground handling in that sim with what we see in the Accu-Sim T-6. IL-2 probably errs in the other direction when it comes to free-castoring tailwheel physics. For example, when taxying the Spit, only pretty heavy use of the brakes seems to effectively mitigate against ground looping.

Unfortunately I'm not qualified to compare real taildragger handling with the behaviour in either sim, but it seems clear that it's one of the most difficult aspects to perfect from a pure physics point of view. I reckon the T-6 strikes a pretty good balance between being challenging when the tailwheel is in unlocked mode, but also allowing successful crosswind landings given the rather poor default ground handling in FSX/P3D.

Cheers,
Nick
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by bobsk8 »

Nick - A2A wrote: 31 Oct 2019, 08:16 Guys,

I reinstalled the T-6 in FSX and did a comparison between the original release from back in Mar 2016 and the updated version. As far as I can tell, the ground handling is unchanged.

To me, it does appear to feel a bit more forgiving than what I recall from when I first tried the aircraft as a customer. However, back then I didn't own rudder pedals so had to make do with a twisty joystick for rudder control. Hopefully a bit of practice has helped too.

With the stick held back, my observations pretty much correspond to Oracle's. With the tailwheel controlled rather than in its free-castoring mode, only pretty serious mishandling of the rudder and/or a stiff crosswind will tend to cause loss of directional control. No doubt this is a bit more forgiving than the real aircraft, but the T-6 pushes the FSX ground handling well beyond what's possible by default. I think a degree of compromise is probably to be expected too, to make the product usable by those with differing levels of hardware.

Having recently installed the IL-2 Great Battles series, it's interesting for me to compare the ground handling in that sim with what we see in the Accu-Sim T-6. IL-2 probably errs in the other direction when it comes to free-castoring tailwheel physics. For example, when taxying the Spit, only pretty heavy use of the brakes seems to effectively mitigate against ground looping.

Unfortunately I'm not qualified to compare real taildragger handling with the behaviour in either sim, but it seems clear that it's one of the most difficult aspects to perfect from a pure physics point of view. I reckon the T-6 strikes a pretty good balance between being challenging when the tailwheel is in unlocked mode, but also allowing successful crosswind landings given the rather poor default ground handling in FSX/P3D.

Cheers,
Nick
Well it seems to me that the difference appears to be how the T6 handles in FSX compared to what I am seeing in P3D, which frankly is exactly like what I have read is the handling of the real aircraft. In P3D, if you don't keep the heading straight on landing, a ground loop is usually the result with much squealing of the tires as they are side loading. Pulling the stick back prematurely forcing the tailwheel to contact the runway, will just cause a more dramatic and more exciting ground loop with the aircraft heading in the opposite direction as it was when it touched down ( been there, done that) . Frankly I would find the T6 handling as described in this thread, to not be much if any of a challenge to piloting skills, and I doubt seriously if I would fly it very much, if at all.
Now throw in a crosswind, and the challenge steps up quite a bit. The only time the tailwheel is unlocked ( free wheeling) in my setup is when I push forward all the way on the stick, used for very tight turns while taxiing. Other than that, the tailwheel is coupled to the rudder, just like in a real tail dragger. If the aircraft starts to veer off the runway direction, after touching down, rudder must be applied to correct this, or off to the side of the runway you go. If the veer is excessive, then the CG of the aircraft takes over, with the heavier rear trying to outrace the front and the swapping ends excitement quickly results. Not correcting this situation quickly with rudder input, results in the pilot becoming a passenger on a carnival ride.... :shock:
Last edited by bobsk8 on 31 Oct 2019, 09:18, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by Oracle427 »

Thanks for checking and confirming.

For consideration by the A2A. The locked tailwheel should remain effective at low speeds and when yaw rate is somewhat close to the amount of rudder input.

Low speed in theory equates to better tail wheel effectiveness because it has less inertia to overcome before it loses grip with the surface.

Once the speed increases sufficiently or the yaw rate is no longer somewhat corresponding with the rudder input, then the tail wheel should not be effective in overcoming the momentum of the tail.

Food for thought.

I find the ground handing with the stick not held full back/tail wheel locked to be excellent.
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by alan CXA651 »

Hi Oracle.
Tail wheel should be in locked position when stick is centred or back I.E. coupled with rudder, it should only be unlocked in full fwd postion.
regards alan. 8)
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Re: T6 ground handling like tricycle gear

Post by Oracle427 »

Hi Alan,

Maybe A2A is modelling the effect of downforce in addition to looking. I can only speculate on that.

It doesn't change my observations, not Nick's results, though I'm not sure if he saw the same with the stick in the nuetral position. What are you seeing?

What I do know is every tailwheel already I have flown with locking tailwheels aren't capable of self correcting their ground track at pretty much any speed faster than a brisk walking pace. The Stearman is really bad there, and I'm assuming that the T-6 will be just as bad and probably worse as it is heavier, taller and higher power.

I have never flown a T-6, though I hope to one day. I'm only trying to extend what I've experienced from other similar aircraft to the A2A simulation.

I don't believe I should be able to land and rollout in a straight line with my feet on the floor after touching down in a three point attitude and the stick held back the entire time. That is a direct contraction to my real world experience, thus this report/request.

I do believe the simulation is great for two point landings!
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