Learning to fly the Connie

[TreeTops]

The 3 degree glide slope comes from the ILS chart. This is the normal slope.
Some airports like London City and Innsbruk have steeper slopes and often require special training.

[trisho0]

Thanks for putting that video up Flapman. Great job.
I think you could have cut the last minute off the video. ha. You wanted critique!!!

No, seriously though, some little operating things, which are always up for discussion.
Flaps fully down at 1600ft. The manual says 'when landing is assured', but I find at 300ft (or hard IFR) with speed at 100 knots, setting flaps from approach to landing bleeds off speed to 90 knots just nicely without changing power.
Landing speed was high which resulted in a floaty landing. Not that the passengers mind though!!!. Which reminds me I need to do some practice in both light and heavy landing weights to see where its at.

Now the good stuff for Pat. Take notice of the following items :
1. Everything is done with small changes. Its almost sleep inducing. Flying the plane becomes so much easier when its just swanning along doing its thing. Big control changes result in big deviations which end up being big swings in pitch and heading. This doesnt happen all by itself though. Constant attention to the instruments and small timely control inputs are what is happening in the video.
===>>> I learned big changes give problems.

2. The throttles increase when the speed drops to 127 knots and is kept at or slightly above 120 knots.
===>>> Before you asked why I power up (throttles increase). You have the answer, throttles increase when the speed drops.

3. The plane is turned slightly before the localiser (line of red boxes) is crossed and then slowly manouvered inline. There is no flying past the localiser requiring more manouvering to get back inline.
4. The gear being extended just prior to the glideslope (line of red boxes) which assists in keeping the speed as it pitches over and begins the descent, followed by the approach flaps being extended. Power then keeps the speed required.
===>>> When RPM is changed to 2300?

5. The plane is pitched down immediately the glideslope is intercepted. This prevents the plane flying over top of the red boxes requiring a steeper descent to recapture the glideslope. Notice the glideslope needle is kept at the horizontal indicating the plane is on the glideslope. Then the vertical speed indicator is held steady at approximately 700 fpm keeping the plane on track without any big deviations. It's all smooooooth all the way down.
===>>> I will see that on my next Circle flight, pitching down and stay at 700fpm approx.

6. By following the ILS all the way down makes the landing simple by being in line with and at the beginning of the runway.
===>>> I will practice more on that.

Pat

[trisho0]

The 3 degree glide slope comes from the ILS chart. This is the normal slope.
Some airports like London City and Innsbruk have steeper slopes and often require special training.

So, before start with new flight plan I have to check the Chart if available, right? How do apply 3 degrees on the EHAM Circle? Or, just follow the runway lights, 2-red 2-white.
Pat

[trisho0]

FlapMan, I watched your FSX L049 ILS 36R EHAM fly through the boxes video. That's perfect glideslope based on what I learned here. How did you keep steady 2000ft? What joystick is used? I saw you increased RPM I think to 2400 and also you kept speed at 25 until right before touchdown.
I saw you followed the red boxes so, that's why glideslope was horizontal as expected. But, if no red boxes activated to follow then just follow the runway lights and the ILS, right?
Good flight!
Pat

[flapman]

Pat, this discussion is probably above your pay grade for now, you can safely skip this post. We're going to actually talk about Constellation flying. But this might be helpful for the lurkers here...

You wanted critique!!!

Aw yeah.

The manual says 'when landing is assured', but I find at 300ft (or hard IFR) with speed at 100 knots, setting flaps from approach to landing bleeds off speed to 90 knots just nicely without changing power.

I was at 110 knots when I put down full flaps at 1,600ft. 1,200 ft of descent later with 100% flaps extended much longer than required I have only lost 4 knots down to 106 KIAS. This approach is flown at an extremely low weight of about 58,500lbs, with an empty cabin, cargo holds, and only enough fuel for circuit practice. Very very light. It caused some problems with this deceleration on approach (a technique for propliners, not jetliners with thin wings and slow engine response). Your somewhat simplified procedure is correct for *sane* approach weights, and I could have done the same in this very approach at low weight. The A2A manual is simplified in this respect as well, but it's good enough for users. I had previously been experimenting with this approach, and was extending the flaps much earlier than required just to see how slow I could get on the approach. I seem to loose control of the speed at about 100-105 KIAS at this weight in this airplane. The experimentation, the desire to get as slow as possible, and forgetting to do the proper procedure here combined to result in my error,

Flaps fully down at 1600ft.

And even with this error I still managed to come in too fast. I still could have waited on the flaps considering they only netted me 4 knots lol. My profile uses 2400 RPM for the final approach segment, so my minimum MAP is 24". I cannot reduce power to correct this problem without assumed excessive engine wear. The entire descent on glideslope is flown at minimum power. These combine to result in,

Landing speed was high which resulted in a floaty landing.

I had to make some hard choices when I passed through the last box with excess speed. Do I go around? Do I touch down fast? Do I float? I chose to float. I traded some of that excess speed for flight distance to further raise then nose and touch down at the correct speed.

To quote the 2008 Propliner tutorial,
"In propliners floating is caused by pilots, not aerodynamics. Floating is just a bad pilot choice when simulating operation of a propliner. It makes no difference whether the aircraft has a nosewheel or a tailwheel, whether turbine or piston engined.
...Below 50 QFE PF decides whether to float or sink. It's as simple as that.
...Float is caused by arriving at 50 QFE with IAS > Vref or by over rotation to positive VSI at Vref."

Not that the passengers mind though!!!.

That's why you smile at them and say 'Thank You' as they compliment your smooth landing after a badly performed approach, and you landed near the end of the touchdown zone.

1. Everything is done with small changes. Its almost sleep inducing. Flying the plane becomes so much easier when its just swanning along doing its thing.

Thanks for the compliment Trev. Some of that is my Logitech Extreme 3D Pro with it's deadzones and occasional spikes, but it's pretty easy to manage. I've also made no changes to the pitch stability. It does result in some rocking along, even in smooth air.

2. The throttles increase when the speed drops to 127 knots and is kept at or slightly above 120 knots.

My target was 130 at that point but that's basically the same thing.

3. The plane is turned slightly before the localiser (line of red boxes) is crossed and then slowly manouvered inline. There is no flying past the localiser requiring more manouvering to get back inline.

That's actually another error I made, but I just looked good while fixing it. I misjudged the localizer intercept and turned early, but (with some help of the boxes) I realized the problem and stopped the turn to 004 (or whatever it is) and let it come in slowly.

6. By following the ILS all the way down makes the landing simple by being in line with and at the beginning of the runway.

It's funny, I thought the problem was getting him onto a well set up final approach. We've now progressing to basic landing skills haha. The Constellation is a really complicated aircraft. It performs well, but it's fairly intolerant of error. The B-377 and stuff like the DC-6/DC-7C is even worse in this regard. More power changes, more operating targets, less tolerance. The Convair 580 prohibits any power changes from TOD to the runway!

[flapman]

How did you keep steady 2000ft?

I look at the altimeter. If it indicates anything other than 2,000ft exactly... and I must remain at 2,000ft.. I know I have a problem. My next step is to fix that problem. Power change? Pitch change? I do what is required to fix the problem. I frequently look at the altimeter in level flight. It shows the value I want to maintain. If another gauge becomes important (ILS for example) I spend more time looking at that instead.

What joystick is used?

Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

you kept speed at 25 until right before touchdown.

I don't know what this means.

But, if no red boxes activated to follow then just follow the runway lights and the ILS, right?

I asked you to use the red boxes because you were not following the PAPI(runway lights) or the ILS. You missed both multiple times. You use any tools you have available to fly the correct path. Flying the correct path is job #1. Fly the path first, learn the various tools later. I always said I thought you were not ready for ILS yet.

Good flight!

Thank you sir!

[trisho0]

How did you keep steady 2000ft?

I look at the altimeter. If it indicates anything other than 2,000ft exactly... and I must remain at 2,000ft.. I know I have a problem. My next step is to fix that problem. Power change? Pitch change? I do what is required to fix the problem. I frequently look at the altimeter in level flight. It shows the value I want to maintain. If another gauge becomes important (ILS for example) I spend more time looking at that instead.
===>>> You didn't answer my question (lol). I know tasks like ILS corrections is priority and then we can fix the Altitude. I trim the plane for this Circle and pitch changes as needed.

What joystick is used?

Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
===>>> I had that joystick, now sleeping in my closet. My Logitech has spikes issues.

you kept speed at 25 until right before touchdown.

I don't know what this means.
===>>> I saw your Manifold Pressure was at 25" before touchdown. I thought we need 19-20". I guess you kept MP at 25" to maintain close to 120Knots?

But, if no red boxes activated to follow then just follow the runway lights and the ILS, right?

I asked you to use the red boxes because you were not following the PAPI(runway lights) or the ILS. You missed both multiple times. You use any tools you have available to fly the correct path. Flying the correct path is job #1. Fly the path first, learn the various tools later. I always said I thought you were not ready for ILS yet.
===>>> Well, If I am not ready for ILS yet then I have nothing to do in this over than 40 pages thread. In this room, I learned the use of ILS and just recently understood Glideslope so I can keep practicing by my own if you think so. The EHAM Circle laps flight is the best learning part to practice with. I also, learned a lot from Trev guidance. Thanks again Trev.

Good flight!

Thank you sir!

Pat

[flapman]

===>>> You didn't answer my question (lol).

Then I did not understand the question. Can you explain the question "How did you keep steady 2000ft?"
Can you try asking this again?

[trisho0]

===>>> You didn't answer my question (lol).

Then I did not understand the question. Can you explain the question "How did you keep steady 2000ft?"
Can you try asking this again?

No need to do this question again. I can realize you did trim maintaining the 2000ft Altitude during the cruise because no Sperry AP activated.
Pat

[trisho0]

Trev,
Did some endings circle and all of them are about the same results.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-GqQjE ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e9KtJ7 ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17cWJo6 ... sp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k2Y14l ... sp=sharing

Now I keep practicing this often to get a more centered landings. I don't think will post a video until I get perfect one.
Pat

[flapman]

I know you want feedback from Trev, but I'll give you some too if you want it.

I think you've made enough progress to move onto something else. But I suggest you continue EHAM practice. My plan is this;

1. Fly at least one landing EHAM 36R looking only at the boxes, do not look at the ILS. You think I tell you this so you don't learn ILS. This is not true. You should practice aircraft control before reading ILS gauge. When you fly ILS you do both at the same time. Make it easy, learn Connie before learning ILS.
2. After you feel good with 1, now do what you are currently doing. Use boxes and ILS together. This should make the ILS+Boxes easier.
3. When you are good with 2 (ILS+boxes), turn off the Boxes and fly ILS only. It will probably take you a long time to reach this point.
4. Turn off ILS (you will have no boxes either).

To fly 4, I think you will need this change to the flight plan. It is only used for no ILS (I think 2,000ft is too high without ILS)

When you pass NV, fly 004 heading and descend to 1,000ft.
You must find the runway, it will not always be in front of the airplane. You will have to turn the airplane to "line up" with the runway.
You have flown this landing enough times now you know what it looks like. Use the PAPI lights and the runway shape to know when to descend for landing.
If you see the invisible glideslope before you reach 1,000ft adjust airplane using the same skills to fly GS.
If you reach 1,000ft before you"see" the glideslope you must stop descent. Stay at 1,000ft until you judge it is time to descend on glideslope. Just like now you stay at 2,000ft until boxes+ILS. Same skill, different altitude.
If you get lost, climb to 2,000ft and fly Trev's pattern again until you reach NV.

I also want to see if you can fly your EDFE-EHAM flight again. Can you find FFM this time?

This is the video EDFE-EHAM and lost in airborne:
EDFE course 355
FFM 114.20/316
COL 108.80/315
PAM 117.80/263
EHAM

Can you find FFM? and can you find the FFM Radial 316 FROM? You know how to use DRMI now. You also know how to use LOCALIZER=RANGE

No video required, just want to see if you have the skills yet, or if more practice needed.

[trisho0]

I know you want feedback from Trev, but I'll give you some too if you want it.
===>>> Feedback can be from any Pilot who wants to participate in this thread. Trev has been my guidance since this thread began. I also appreciate your help so much, indeed.

I think you've made enough progress to move onto something else. But I suggest you continue EHAM practice.
===>>> Thank you Sir.

My plan is this;

1. Fly at least one landing EHAM 36R looking only at the boxes, do not look at the ILS. You think I tell you this so you don't learn ILS. This is not true. You should practice aircraft control before reading ILS gauge. When you fly ILS you do both at the same time. Make it easy, learn Connie before learning ILS.
2. After you feel good with 1, now do what you are currently doing. Use boxes and ILS together. This should make the ILS+Boxes easier.
3. When you are good with 2 (ILS+boxes), turn off the Boxes and fly ILS only. It will probably take you a long time to reach this point.
4. Turn off ILS (you will have no boxes either).
===>>> I thought to fly 1, 2 and 3. In fact I already started earlier today with no red boxes. I saw the landing runway but of course I need to go back to plan 1 (lol).

To fly 4, I think you will need this change to the flight plan. It is only used for no ILS (I think 2,000ft is too high without ILS)
===>>> In the past month I used to do FPL to fly non ILS but VOR to VOR and yes I was be able to see the runway to land but at too high Altitude, forcing the plane to descend at lower than 1000ft. We don't want that.

When you pass NV, fly 004 heading and descend to 1,000ft.
You must find the runway, it will not always be in front of the airplane. You will have to turn the airplane to "line up" with the runway.
You have flown this landing enough times now you know what it looks like. Use the PAPI lights and the runway shape to know when to descend for landing.
===>>> Trev gave me a tip, example if I am 20,000ft altitude the time to descend is at 70nm left from airport at 180 Knots airspeed.

If you see the invisible glideslope before you reach 1,000ft adjust airplane using the same skills to fly GS.
If you reach 1,000ft before you"see" the glideslope you must stop descent. Stay at 1,000ft until you judge it is time to descend on glideslope. Just like now you stay at 2,000ft until boxes+ILS. Same skill, different altitude.
===>>> So, if I am at 1000ft and I don't see G/S, stay at 1000ft until I see the G/S for descending, I understood.
Please hold on here, I don't know when is time to start descending but from EHAM Circle is started descending when the red boxes where getting lower than the plane nose. I think at 10nm.

If you get lost, climb to 2,000ft and fly Trev's pattern again until you reach NV.
===>>> Just like a Go Around, thanks.

I also want to see if you can fly your EDFE-EHAM flight again. Can you find FFM this time?
===>>> I can give a try on that flight plan. Now it will be more fun (lol) but I think I need more practice with EHAM Circle first.

This is the video EDFE-EHAM and lost in airborne:
EDFE course 355
FFM 114.20/316
COL 108.80/315
PAM 117.80/263
EHAM

Can you find FFM? and can you find the FFM Radial 316 FROM? You know how to use DRMI now. You also know how to use LOCALIZER=RANGE
===>>> I will take the chance after EHAM Circle.

No video required, just want to see if you have the skills yet, or if more practice needed.
===>>> Video will be only if I think is success.

Pat

[flapman]

I think it will be some time before you are ready to try plan #4. Perhaps we can discuss it more when you are ready.
It sounds like you know what to work on, and when you are ready to try other things.

[trisho0]

I think it will be some time before you are ready to try plan #4. Perhaps we can discuss it more when you are ready.
It sounds like you know what to work on, and when you are ready to try other things.

Plan #4 can wait for a long while. Thanks
Pat

EDIT:
Instead of waiting Plan 4 I did kind of a try to see what happen with my actual knowledge. Just curious and yes I was at too high Altitude but got the runway at front right after turning on PAM navaids.
I could give another try I think I am very close to get it. I didn't calculate properly the descending. I also need to keep practicing EHAM Circle as your guidance with Plan 1 and so on.

FSX EDFE-EHAM was too high altitude to land.


You said no video but I have it in my system if you want it.
Happy Flights
Pat

[flapman]

Nice flight Pat.

How did you know where PAM was?

yes I was at too high Altitude but got the runway at front right after turning on PAM navaids.

FSX EDFE-EHAM was too high altitude to land.

What should you do if you are too high altitude?