Post-Sim MSFS 2020 Update 5...any updates from A2A?

[Seat7A]

Anyone who follows the Avsim and MSFS forums understands why an A2A Comanche for MSFS is not in the near future. After the latest update, Microsoft's so-called simulator is a real mess

[jeepinforfun]

I sometimes think people forget that MSFS is still Beta, bit by bit ASOBO are making changes good or bad for the common good of the future. This takes time and I for one will stick it out with them because I am ready for this new sim to succeed. There is even, maybe DX12 in the future....

Also with 5 some of the settings were changed so it's a good idea to check that out.

I'm sure A2A will get on it in the future when their needs are met and I do think ASOBO are interested in working with them and others because it is their best interests in the long run.

That all said I am running out to throw a coin in a well.

[Hobart Escin]

I sometimes think people forget that MSFS is still Beta, bit by bit ASOBO are making changes good or bad for the common good of the future. This takes time and I for one will stick it out with them because I am ready for this new sim to succeed. There is even, maybe DX12 in the future....

Also with 5 some of the settings were changed so it's a good idea to check that out.

I'm sure A2A will get on it in the future when their needs are met and I do think ASOBO are interested in working with them and others because it is their best interests in the long run.

That all said I am running out to throw a coin in a well.

I disagree about the Beta moniker here. MSFS2020 has been out for a year now and it's clear that from the very beginning neither Asobo or Microsoft had the programming talent to ever produce correct flight dynamics fidelity. This is typical Microsoft culture and has been so since Flight Simulator was first developed in the 1980s. The scenery engine was a huge step with MSFS2020 obviously, but flight dynamics fidelity has not followed suite, nor does it appear likely that it ever will it terms of Microsoft's development outlook. Microsoft has essentially always relied on third party developers to fill the void and produce different software products that managed to repair flaws in Microsoft's code and/or add features that were never developed to begin with.

Microsoft will never change, unfortunately, no matter what sim platform they develop now or in the future. Either third party developers like PMDG, A2A, et. al., manage to overcome the myriad limitations inherent in MSFS2020 or the problems will quite frankly never be fixed. Asobo are a scenery platform developer, not aerodynamic engineers. Microsoft people are game developers and not real pilots. It may be that MSFS2020 turns out to be an XBox thing in the long run, where users in that environment are far less concerned about fidelity and expect flash and eye candy above all else.

I'm not optimistic at all anymore about MSFS2020 in terms of what Microsoft is capable of by itself. If Lockheed were to integrate streaming photoscenery into P3D, which I'm certain they are more than capable of, and developers like A2A remain loyal to the P3D platform, I will never have any use at all for MSFS2020.

[ratty]

I disagree about the Beta moniker here. MSFS2020 has been out for a year now and it's clear that from the very beginning neither Asobo or Microsoft had the programming talent to ever produce correct flight dynamics fidelity. This is typical Microsoft culture and has been so since Flight Simulator was first developed in the 1980s. The scenery engine was a huge step with MSFS2020 obviously, but flight dynamics fidelity has not followed suite, nor does it appear likely that it ever will it terms of Microsoft's development outlook. Microsoft has essentially always relied on third party developers to fill the void and produce different software products that managed to repair flaws in Microsoft's code and/or add features that were never developed to begin with.

Microsoft will never change, unfortunately, no matter what sim platform they develop now or in the future. Either third party developers like PMDG, A2A, et. al., manage to overcome the myriad limitations inherent in MSFS2020 or the problems will quite frankly never be fixed. Asobo are a scenery platform developer, not aerodynamic engineers. Microsoft people are game developers and not real pilots. It may be that MSFS2020 turns out to be an XBox thing in the long run, where users in that environment are far less concerned about fidelity and expect flash and eye candy above all else.

I'm not optimistic at all anymore about MSFS2020 in terms of what Microsoft is capable of by itself. If Lockheed were to integrate streaming photoscenery into P3D, which I'm certain they are more than capable of, and developers like A2A remain loyal to the P3D platform, I will never have any use at all for MSFS2020.

Well said! A very concise, articulate summary of the situation.

[DHenriques_]

I disagree about the Beta moniker here. MSFS2020 has been out for a year now and it's clear that from the very beginning neither Asobo or Microsoft had the programming talent to ever produce correct flight dynamics fidelity. This is typical Microsoft culture and has been so since Flight Simulator was first developed in the 1980s. The scenery engine was a huge step with MSFS2020 obviously, but flight dynamics fidelity has not followed suite, nor does it appear likely that it ever will it terms of Microsoft's development outlook. Microsoft has essentially always relied on third party developers to fill the void and produce different software products that managed to repair flaws in Microsoft's code and/or add features that were never developed to begin with.

Microsoft will never change, unfortunately, no matter what sim platform they develop now or in the future. Either third party developers like PMDG, A2A, et. al., manage to overcome the myriad limitations inherent in MSFS2020 or the problems will quite frankly never be fixed. Asobo are a scenery platform developer, not aerodynamic engineers. Microsoft people are game developers and not real pilots. It may be that MSFS2020 turns out to be an XBox thing in the long run, where users in that environment are far less concerned about fidelity and expect flash and eye candy above all else.

I'm not optimistic at all anymore about MSFS2020 in terms of what Microsoft is capable of by itself. If Lockheed were to integrate streaming photo scenery into P3D, which I'm certain they are more than capable of, and developers like A2A remain loyal to the P3D platform, I will never have any use at all for MSFS2020.

Well said! A very concise, articulate summary of the situation.

If I might be allowed to respectfully offer a slightly different opinion.

A flight model is only as good or bad as the people you either have in your employ or hire to do the job.
I agree that FS2020 has issues. ALL flight simulators have issues. It goes with the territory. A flight simulator is one of the most complex pieces of software ever attempted by man. The result of this is that regardless of the point when a flight simulator goes gold and releases to the public, in actuality that simulator is in effect entered into a state of constant need for correction and repair. One can make a fairly good argument that a flight simulator is never really out of Beta.
When it comes down to flight modeling I think all of us can agree that neither Microsoft OR Asobo have the in-house talent to put together a first class FDE (Flight Dynamics Engine). I say this because a first class FDE is made up of two parts each part dependent on the other to complete a finished air file that makes it into the simulator. MS and Asobo can only code what is given to them as raw data by the people (pilots) who feed information to the coders. If the pilot input data is flawed, the FDE is doomed from the outset. Conversely, if the coding is bad, likewise.
FS2020 has fantastic potential. The world part (graphics engine) is a phenomenal success. The FDE however, seems to be a bit under performing as are other integral parts of the program such as the ATC interface.
I've been testing FS2020 now for some time and like you I have my opinion on its quality. I believe the base program is sound. It is by no means a finished product. It needs attention.
My opinion is to give them time. They're learning. Asobo is a game company not at all like us here at A2A where we are devoted to flight simulation only and have experienced pilots on board.
It remains to be seen which way Asobo will go with 2020. But as an ex- Microsoft MVP for Flight Simulator I think I know Microsoft fairly well. They don't like to be second best at anything at Microsoft.
Time will tell !

Dudley Henriques

[Seat7A]

No one mentions another perspective. MSFS was developed to be used on an X-box console. According to MS, this would not adversely affect PC users. I think the latest update of MSFS whose main purpose was to make it available on X-box shows that this does not work very well. Let me take an example. In P3D I use an X-box controller to control the camera in the cabin. In P3D, this is done using Chaseplane. A very practical and well-functioning solution. Until the latest update of MSFS SU5, this and that has worked in MSFS, of course without Chaseplane. Now to adapt to the X-box console, there is a white dot in the middle of the image you have on the screen as soon as any control on the controller is moved. This is how it works in X-box and it is not possible to switch it off. For me, flight simulation is to strive for the best possible realism and this white dot can hardly say contribute to realism. I think like many others that MSFS is fantastic from several perspectives, but I feel pessimistic that MSFS will really be the flight simulator we all want.

/Thomas
ESNN

[Dogsbody55]

My own opinion on this is that when A2A finally release something for MSFS, we will have the best sim yet offered. P3D, which I have and use, is good, but it's still based on FSX with all the legacy issues involved with that sim. I still get stutters and crashes in P3D, and it's painful. The stock aircraft in that sim are only a little better than stock FSX and all fly poorly. On my three year old system, MSFS runs brilliantly with the settings on high and a couple of the commercially available addon planes hint at what is achievable once A2A release a plane for it.

Dudley is quite right in what he says about coding first class FDE. On the one hand, you have computer programmers who don't fully appreciate the nuances of flight as expressed by pilots, and on the other, pilots who can't code sufficiently well to develop a good FDE. It has ever been thus, until A2A arrived. Asobo are trying very hard to bring something new to the flight sim genre and it seems to me that most complaints about rubbish flying qualities are still a symptom of my last statement. Expectations have been raised by the arrival of MSFS and I think for many those expectations exceed what has been achieved so far. FSX and P3D have had decades to get to where they did and let's not forget the howls of disappointment when FSX first came out, which was a repeat of those same howls when FS2000 was released. Both ran like a drunken dog on two legs.

My biggest complaint with MSFS relates to their sim updates and how they seem to break things, so I've learned not to update as soon as they release those updates, but wait a few days for the patch to fix the patch to come out. In the meantime, I can still fly P3D. I only updated MSFS yesterday, ran the patch after that and tested it last night. It's fine, with the exception of reduced scenery draw distance, and my installed addons are good too. My other complaint is that they released this big update with no documentation to help users through the changes introduced. Not so clever, Asobo.

We might get an improved sim from Lockheed Martin, but not for a while, if at all. I don't imagine that they could justify the time and expense of doing something like MSFS, especially as it's not part of their core business.

Give it time. In another year, who knows where the sim will be, or how many A2A planes we'll have to chose from. In the interim, enjoy it for what it is, research the addon plane market and get something better than the stock offerings and do some low and slow flying. It's really quite amazing.


Cheers,
Mike

[MarcE]

MS and Asobo have done one major mistake from the beginning: they gave and met release dates. Software has never been ready on release date. Since August last year they have done the same thing over and over, gave release dates and implemented new features. None of them were ready, not even close. So the mountain of unfinished business has grown constantly and now they have the problem of a boiling Flightsim community, they pissed off their partners (Aerosoft) who have stopped developing their traffic addon. They have built a construction site that is larger than what they can handle efficiently. Now either they manage to clean up or MSFS will continue and eventually lose its customers. I doubt that MS and Asobo will let that happen - in the end. Asobo have proven that they can learn and adapt. It‘s time for them to do it with the base issue now. The sim as it stands today and compared to SU4 or even its release state is ugly and has an unusable UI. I‘m full power back to P3D atm but will of course keep an eye on my MSFS installation.

[Mickel]

After a weekend trying to resolve issues with a certain prop-liner, I spent 90 minutes in the J-3. Now all is right in the world.

[Waffler11]

So it sounds like some of you aren’t satisfied with the level of quality that MS/Asobo put out, and you make valid points. Others, like Dudley, say that flight sim products, no matter how much effort goes into it, will never be perfect nor satisfy everyone because when you get to the absolute root of everything, it’s still designed by man and man has been and always will be flawed. All we can hope for is a product that not only closely resembles flight, but also provides enjoyment as a result.

Let’s be fair here, MS/Asobo had a HUGE task in front of them to re-create the entire world. It may be not thought of just how incredibly difficult that must’ve been and so I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I’m no pilot, but I’ve flown plenty of times, some of them alongside my father in his Grumman Tiger, and think that MS/Asobo did a fair enough job in re-creating the “feel” of flight.

It’s not without flaws, of course, but it would behoove one to remember that this sim is just a year old and already has come a very long way. I await the golden age of this sim as it becomes more stable and realistic from both MS/Asobo and third-party developers with great anticipation!

[Mickel]

Don’t read too much into all of this. There are a lot of people (certainly me, and probably Marc) who want this thing to succeed. It’s just a bit frustrating…

The complex aircraft makers are at the mercy of the base sim. Blindsiding their users (us) isn’t going to go down well.

The flight simmer in me is pleased to have something to have something else to fall back on. The QA Manager in me is hoping there are a lot of preventative actions put in place so the first update after the Comanche is released doesn’t ground it. Not holding my breath on that one.

[DHenriques_]

So it sounds like some of you aren’t satisfied with the level of quality that MS/Asobo put out, and you make valid points. Others, like Dudley, say that flight sim products, no matter how much effort goes into it, will never be perfect nor satisfy everyone because when you get to the absolute root of everything, it’s still designed by man and man has been and always will be flawed. All we can hope for is a product that not only closely resembles flight, but also provides enjoyment as a result.

Let’s be fair here, MS/Asobo had a HUGE task in front of them to re-create the entire world. It may be not thought of just how incredibly difficult that must’ve been and so I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I’m no pilot, but I’ve flown plenty of times, some of them alongside my father in his Grumman Tiger, and think that MS/Asobo did a fair enough job in re-creating the “feel” of flight.

It’s not without flaws, of course, but it would behoove one to remember that this sim is just a year old and already has come a very long way. I await the golden age of this sim as it becomes more stable and realistic from both MS/Asobo and third-party developers with great anticipation!

Just to be clear here.............

I haven't given up on FS2020 by a long shot. I WANT the program to be successful. I believe it has more than the potential to do exactly that. I'm merely saying that the road to achieving that will be a bit bumpy (to say the least .
I will most certainly be hanging in and hoping for the best. No one realizes more than I do what will be involved in this task.
Right now everything is up for grabs. The powers that be are in constant flux as to what they want to do and how to do it.
But make no mistake. FS2020 can make it, and I believe the base program has what it takes to be a wonderful simulation. It's going to take some patience from the community and the bitching and complaining will continue, but in the end I think FS2020 will become what we all hope it can be.
But in the meantime fasten your seat belts. It's going to be a rocky ride ! LOL
Dudley Henriques

[AKar]

I see the problem in part has been all the excess pre-release hype created in part by the flight sim community itself. How many times we read from numerous sources how this was to be an out-of-the-box game changer, you know, having all the brilliance with no more Orbx, no more Navigraph, and all the regular ooh-aahs from not-so-objective previewers, youtubers and others. It was beyond ridiculous, and put bluntly, anyone with any years spent following the development of big flight simulation projects should have seen all the warning signs. This lack of common sense and ignorance made the initial release too "hot", with some addon developers not standing the pressure to jump into bandwagon, and all but bluffing on how far they were on their addon developments on the new platform.

Now the situation, as I perceive it, is still a bit of a mess of development priorities, unknowns, defensiveness, and impatience. I do hope, though, that Asobo et al are able to review their priorities and get the sim truly accessible to the high-end addon market as well.

-Esa

[Ron Attwood]

Here's a chance to have a laugh at an old idiot.

The last update wasn't too bad for me until the 'Hotfix' when various niggles arrived. I won't go into them, they've had enough exposure! I got to the point where I said 'Bugger this, I'll reinstall P3Dv5.2 and give MFS a chance to gather their belongings together"

Which I did. Along with Orbx TrueEarth UK and a few favourite airports, plus all my A2A fleet.

With a level of sanity restored I fired up P3D, jumped in a Bonanza and took off from Stapleford heading to London City Airport.

I didn't get halfway!

There is no going back! MFS, with all it's irritations is still waaaay better. I'll try to be a bit more lenient in future.

Finally I uninstalled P3D for the last time.

[russellwwest]

Here's a chance to have a laugh at an old idiot.

The last update wasn't too bad for me until the 'Hotfix' when various niggles arrived. I won't go into them, they've had enough exposure! I got to the point where I said 'Bugger this, I'll reinstall P3Dv5.2 and give MFS a chance to gather their belongings together"

Which I did. Along with Orbx TrueEarth UK and a few favourite airports, plus all my A2A fleet.

With a level of sanity restored I fired up P3D, jumped in a Bonanza and took off from Stapleford heading to London City Airport.

I didn't get halfway!

There is no going back! MFS, with all it's irritations is still waaaay better. I'll try to be a bit more lenient in future.

Finally I uninstalled P3D for the last time.

While, I agree the visuals are so much nicer in msfs. For me it's the little things. Constant breaking in each update, huge downloads that need my gpu working high because they use a rendered screen for the updates.
I know these are little things, but for some reason they really grate on me.
I am not going to compare it to p3d, because one is old the other is new. But I really like the planes I have available in p3d, and so it will stay until I have those same planes in msfs.