MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model

[Mustang]

I've done a little more flying in SU10 now, in the Diamond DA40. I upgraded my C172 while wandering around delivering cargo in Air Hauler 2

While gusts are more prevalent, they have only really given me trouble on take off once, and that was when it was a 30kt crosswind, which is above the max. crosswind limit for the aircraft of 25kts. But hey, I'd set my hardware up to go flying and loaded the sim, and I wasn't about to let that small detail stop me Suffice to say, I couldn't quite stay on the runway, and just edged onto the grass before lifting off. It was a wild ride. Overall, having the wind and gusts NOT dramatically drop off to nothing during landing - or kick in during the take-off acceleration roll - is a big improvement for me. Every other sim before MSFS was too tame at all times, and nothing like the handful of real flights I've had in a GA aircraft where it was far from smooth right down the last moment of landing.

There's a poll on the new turbulence on the official forums, for anyone interested:
https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/th ... /544851/57

Spoiler alert - the positive votes massively outweigh the negatives.

As mentioned before, one or more of the C172 models have the new ground friction variables included in the aircraft.cfg. I've read that upping the friction coefficient can help the aircraft 'stick' to the ground to make it more controllable on the runway. Once they fine tune these for different aircraft I think we will be in a better place:
https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/pl ... /455009/69

Code: Select all

ground_crosswind_effect_max_speed = -1000 // feet per second, default is 80
ground_crosswind_effect_zero_speed = -1000 // feet per second, default is 5
ground_high_speed_steeringwheel_static_friction_scalar = 1.4 ; 1.0
ground_high_speed_otherwheel_static_friction_scalar = 1.4 ; 1.0

The top pair of entries determine the speeds at which the crosswind is reduced to zero, or increased to 100% of its normal strength for the current weather.
The bottom pair determine how sticky your wheels are while rolling - so it would seem. A value of 10 makes a noticeable difference, apparently.

As an aside, and in line with what einherz said, the more realistic our simulators get, the more we disbelieve them. It's like computer-generated people in films or games. When they're far from realistic, our brains fill in the blanks and work to make them feel real to us in some way - much like how we could be immersed in old wireframe flight simulators and feel we were there. Now that simulators look and act 95% realistically, that missing 5% really catches our attention and we find even more faults than we did with the earlier versions. It's a little ironic in a way!

[Ron Attwood]

I wish I could add 'Likes' or somesuch for that post.

Let us not forget how unrealistic A2A's P-51 was/is....Until you learned it properly.

[Blitzer]

For all it faults MSFS is gradually moving in the right direction. The latest tweaks to gusts are better, perhaps with a little fine tuning and/or proving the user with some level of control might be a way to keep everyone happy. I would settle for them doing something so it was not quite so unpleasant in VR.

[TymK]

I wish I could add 'Likes' or somesuch for that post.

Let us not forget how unrealistic A2A's P-51 was/is....Until you learned it properly.

I couldn't agree more... I had (or at least I thought I had) an issue with the behavior of the default C172 in the morning and I decided to do some testing with the variables mentioned by Mustang tonight. After some tweaking, however, I realized that I was simply demanding too much from the plane -- it was running out of rudder authority in the crosswind as it should.

So, I gave up any further tinkering and flew the Aerobat round EGHE (Scilly Isles/St Mary's Airport) -- check out Superspud's brilliant rendition -- with the nice winds they have over there. I was floored. The way the wind interacts with the terrain is just something else compared to the old sims. I almost crashed as the downdraft caught me when I crossed the cliff edge on short final for runway 32.

I take back what I said earlier about the updated (post-SU10) flight modeling. As mentioned by other posters, some planes simply aren't configured properly to take advantage of it, but when they are, the effects are quite spectacular. I'm definitely not implying that the FM is perfect, but the more I fly, the more I appreciate it.

[guenseli]

and we find even more faults than we did with the earlier versions.

I predicted at MSFS launch, that we will complain now much more about things like "that street sign is wrong" etc.

You explained it on point: the more details we get, the more we get intolerant about them

[AKar]

and we find even more faults than we did with the earlier versions.

I predicted at MSFS launch, that we will complain now much more about things like "that street sign is wrong" etc.

You explained it on point: the more details we get, the more we get intolerant about them

And, the issue therein is that more effort is easily spent in fixing the details of what could be considered good-enough instead of making progress to get more core stuff right.

In what comes to wind/turbulence model, I've only tried the SU10 I think three times this far, all with PMDG's 737-800. In what comes to the turbulence modeling with that pairing, I've encountered no obvious issues. The winds have acted as if somewhat overdone in the past, but none of my flights in SU10 happened to include such a situation. Obviously a small sample size, so it can very well happen in the future to me as well.

-Esa

[DHenriques_]

and we find even more faults than we did with the earlier versions.

I predicted at MSFS launch, that we will complain now much more about things like "that street sign is wrong" etc.

You explained it on point: the more details we get, the more we get intolerant about them

And, the issue therein is that more effort is easily spent in fixing the details of what could be considered good-enough instead of making progress to get more core stuff right.

In what comes to wind/turbulence model, I've only tried the SU10 I think three times this far, all with PMDG's 737-800. In what comes to the turbulence modeling with that pairing, I've encountered no obvious issues. The winds have acted as if somewhat overdone in the past, but none of my flights in SU10 happened to include such a situation. Obviously a small sample size, so it can very well happen in the future to me as well.

-Esa

Over time and after using 2020 exclusively, from my standpoint as a consultant to various developers including us here at A2A on realism and immersion, I've concluded that Asobo went overboard during their concept period on aspects of flight such as wind and its overall effect on aerodynamics which is really an area that the average simmer, even long time pilots, don't pay much attention to unless what they experience while in flight is so out of what is expected that it tweaks their "negative bone".
In other words as long as the sim is demonstrating close to the expected for normal flight the result for the simmer is a non-triggering event where they find the sim "enjoyable".
But no mistake about it. The INSTANT the simmer discovers their flight experience to be out of that "comfort zone" the result turns totally negative.
And this just concerns the flight model.
Now........enter into the immersion zone for the serious simmer with actual piloting experience and discover a peripheral as bad as 2020's ATC experience and you have a negative so powerful it causes a switchover mentally concerning the sim to a "gamer's" perspective which is simply a killer for real world pilots.
I use 2020 exclusively now simply because I'm seeing overall improvement in the program but for me as a real world pilot the totally neglected ATC interfacing that Asobo has unfortunately completely ignored up until now leaves me deep in the negative area concerning the sim.
So my overall reaction so far with FS2020 is that I see it as part simulator and part game that I hope will eventually be directed toward the simulation side of the equation.
But I have serious misgivings about this happening as Asobo and Microsoft seem locked in tightly on their desire to have this program successful by marketing it to two completely separate markets.
I just hope they don't end up destroying what could easily become the best flight simulator ever developed for the simulator side of the marketing equation.
Time will tell !
Dudley Henriques

[AKar]

Over time and after using 2020 exclusively, from my standpoint as a consultant to various developers including us here at A2A on realism and immersion, I've concluded that Asobo went overboard during their concept period on aspects of flight such as wind and its overall effect on aerodynamics which is really an area that the average simmer, even long time pilots, don't pay much attention to unless what they experience while in flight is so out of what is expected that it tweaks their "negative bone".
In other words as long as the sim is demonstrating close to the expected for normal flight the result for the simmer is a non-triggering event where they find the sim "enjoyable".
But no mistake about it. The INSTANT the simmer discovers their flight experience to be out of that "comfort zone" the result turns totally negative.
And this just concerns the flight model.
Now........enter into the immersion zone for the serious simmer with actual piloting experience and discover a peripheral as bad as 2020's ATC experience and you have a negative so powerful it causes a switchover mentally concerning the sim to a "gamer's" perspective which is simply a killer for real world pilots.
I use 2020 exclusively now simply because I'm seeing overall improvement in the program but for me as a real world pilot the totally neglected ATC interfacing that Asobo has unfortunately completely ignored up until now leaves me deep in the negative area concerning the sim.
So my overall reaction so far with FS2020 is that I see it as part simulator and part game that I hope will eventually be directed toward the simulation side of the equation.
But I have serious misgivings about this happening as Asobo and Microsoft seem locked in tightly on their desire to have this program successful by marketing it to two completely separate markets.
I just hope they don't end up destroying what could easily become the best flight simulator ever developed for the simulator side of the marketing equation.
Time will tell !
Dudley Henriques

Just my personal observation, but in my thinking the pain seems to be in what they are attempting to do by themselves vs. opening up for the specialized 3rd party devs to do perhaps better.

Indeed, I understand that it is difficult to push a game to the general public while stating that, btw, there are some $/€500 worth of great software extensions that will get you into the realism zone. And, you'd need a spare tiller axis as well so think about your controllers... ...instead of marketing an in-house, supposedly all-inclusive package.

On the other hand, it is difficult to push a sim platform to the old-school sim farts like most of us around without allowing our favorite devs to fine tune things to be our version of just right. And even as much or more to the full-custom folks, you know, the ones who used to have their standard axes FSUIPC'd just for the sake of it even in the old days.

Thus, I kind of see issues in their approach.

-Esa

[DHenriques_]

Over time and after using 2020 exclusively, from my standpoint as a consultant to various developers including us here at A2A on realism and immersion, I've concluded that Asobo went overboard during their concept period on aspects of flight such as wind and its overall effect on aerodynamics which is really an area that the average simmer, even long time pilots, don't pay much attention to unless what they experience while in flight is so out of what is expected that it tweaks their "negative bone".
In other words as long as the sim is demonstrating close to the expected for normal flight the result for the simmer is a non-triggering event where they find the sim "enjoyable".
But no mistake about it. The INSTANT the simmer discovers their flight experience to be out of that "comfort zone" the result turns totally negative.
And this just concerns the flight model.
Now........enter into the immersion zone for the serious simmer with actual piloting experience and discover a peripheral as bad as 2020's ATC experience and you have a negative so powerful it causes a switchover mentally concerning the sim to a "gamer's" perspective which is simply a killer for real world pilots.
I use 2020 exclusively now simply because I'm seeing overall improvement in the program but for me as a real world pilot the totally neglected ATC interfacing that Asobo has unfortunately completely ignored up until now leaves me deep in the negative area concerning the sim.
So my overall reaction so far with FS2020 is that I see it as part simulator and part game that I hope will eventually be directed toward the simulation side of the equation.
But I have serious misgivings about this happening as Asobo and Microsoft seem locked in tightly on their desire to have this program successful by marketing it to two completely separate markets.
I just hope they don't end up destroying what could easily become the best flight simulator ever developed for the simulator side of the marketing equation.
Time will tell !
Dudley Henriques

Just my personal observation, but in my thinking the pain seems to be in what they are attempting to do by themselves vs. opening up for the specialized 3rd party devs to do perhaps better.

Indeed, I understand that it is difficult to push a game to the general public while stating that, btw, there are some $/€500 worth of great software extensions that will get you into the realism zone. And, you'd need a spare tiller axis as well so think about your controllers... ...instead of marketing an in-house, supposedly all-inclusive package.

On the other hand, it is difficult to push a sim platform to the old-school sim farts like most of us around without allowing our favorite devs to fine tune things to be our version of just right. And even as much or more to the full-custom folks, you know, the ones who used to have their standard axes FSUIPC'd just for the sake of it even in the old days.

Thus, I kind of see issues in their approach.

-Esa

There is truth in all this.
Also, there is the almost unbearable problem for the add on developers concerning an ongoing and consistent updating schedule by Asobo that plays havoc with every add on aircraft and add on improvement put out there by the independent developer. A product made within the sim update 9 for example can be made unusable due to code conflict at sim update 10. This has to be a nightmare for the developer. There is a "catch up" mindset going on for sure but it is horribly aggravating for the end user.
I recently advised a dev who has a respectable aircraft in the sim that they had lost HSI accuracy in RNAV mode on one of their successful add on's after an update. They had to stop development on a new plane and dive back into the flight model of the released product to fix it. The result was a new version available on the sim outlets but a two week waiting time for Microsoft to catch up and place the corrected version on the Marketplace.
This situation is a living hell for the developer and a source of constant angst for the end user.
DH

[jeepinforfun]

..... Now........enter into the immersion zone for the serious simmer with actual piloting experience and discover a peripheral as bad as 2020's ATC experience and you have a negative so powerful it causes a switchover mentally concerning the sim to a "gamer's" perspective which is simply a killer for real world pilots.
I use 2020 exclusively now simply because I'm seeing overall improvement in the program but for me as a real world pilot the totally neglected ATC interfacing that Asobo has unfortunately completely ignored up until now leaves me deep in the negative area concerning the sim......

Dudley Henriques

Maybe you can make a case to the Team to create an Accu-ATC? Just wishing in my own mind Dudley.

[Arman45]

Actually, A2A's own T-6 in a crosswind was the biggest challenge I've faced in any simulator. But it's FUN because the aircraft rewards you when you use the correct technique and punishes you immediately if you don't; this is the most endearing quality of a good trainer aircraft. It took a LOT of practice to get it right, but once you did the extra challenge of a tailwheel and the ensuing chaos upon landing was so rewarding when tamed correctly. A2A was able to incorporate both the instability of a tailwheel aircraft but also the STABILITY of a tailwheel aircraft if flown correctly. MSFS2020 aircraft by contrast are simply unstable in a gusting crosswind no matter how they are flown.

MSFS2020 aircraft (G/A types anyway) are modeled like a paper plane on a unicycle. There's no effect of forward inertia, the wheels don't grip the runway much at all, and weathervaning is hugely exaggerated. The new wind gusts imposed by the SU10 update may not really be that badly modeled, but when you subject the horrible flight model of MSFS2020 aircraft to that kind of environment on the ground, that's when you start playing a cheap video game instead of experiencing a reasonable facsimile of a real aircraft being simulated.

[MarcE]

I've done a little more flying in SU10 now, in the Diamond DA40. I upgraded my C172 while wandering around delivering cargo in Air Hauler 2

While gusts are more prevalent, they have only really given me trouble on take off once, and that was when it was a 30kt crosswind, which is above the max. crosswind limit for the aircraft of 25kts. But hey, I'd set my hardware up to go flying and loaded the sim, and I wasn't about to let that small detail stop me Suffice to say, I couldn't quite stay on the runway, and just edged onto the grass before lifting off. It was a wild ride. Overall, having the wind and gusts NOT dramatically drop off to nothing during landing - or kick in during the take-off acceleration roll - is a big improvement for me. Every other sim before MSFS was too tame at all times, and nothing like the handful of real flights I've had in a GA aircraft where it was far from smooth right down the last moment of landing.

There's a poll on the new turbulence on the official forums, for anyone interested:
https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/th ... /544851/57

Spoiler alert - the positive votes massively outweigh the negatives.

As mentioned before, one or more of the C172 models have the new ground friction variables included in the aircraft.cfg. I've read that upping the friction coefficient can help the aircraft 'stick' to the ground to make it more controllable on the runway. Once they fine tune these for different aircraft I think we will be in a better place:
https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/pl ... /455009/69

Code: Select all

ground_crosswind_effect_max_speed = -1000 // feet per second, default is 80
ground_crosswind_effect_zero_speed = -1000 // feet per second, default is 5
ground_high_speed_steeringwheel_static_friction_scalar = 1.4 ; 1.0
ground_high_speed_otherwheel_static_friction_scalar = 1.4 ; 1.0

The top pair of entries determine the speeds at which the crosswind is reduced to zero, or increased to 100% of its normal strength for the current weather.
The bottom pair determine how sticky your wheels are while rolling - so it would seem. A value of 10 makes a noticeable difference, apparently.

As an aside, and in line with what einherz said, the more realistic our simulators get, the more we disbelieve them. It's like computer-generated people in films or games. When they're far from realistic, our brains fill in the blanks and work to make them feel real to us in some way - much like how we could be immersed in old wireframe flight simulators and feel we were there. Now that simulators look and act 95% realistically, that missing 5% really catches our attention and we find even more faults than we did with the earlier versions. It's a little ironic in a way!

I tried to get along with the turbulences almost the whole day today and I found that - while they may be quite good objectively - they are a real problem now for me personally and that's what I find so difficult to deal with now. It's the visual part of it. The largest aircraft I fly in MSFS is PMDG's DC-6, the other planes are single and twin engine props. They swing around the vertical axis like crazy now, a left-right-left-right at a rate of up to twice per second, sometimes a little slower. It's not much, maybe 3-5 degrees, but it makes it impossible to focus on anything in the scenery. In 2D I find it terrible to see and recognize anything, a proper circuit is pretty much impossible since I can't judge speed, altitude or direction with all that shaking of the outside world while the airframe remains almost steady on the screen. In VR it simply causes nausea within seconds and I AM totally used to flying in VR from DCS. So while the turbs and gusts might be spot on or very good or whatever, they don't fit into a PC simulation where we can only see what we do, where we don't feel anything.

So, below the line, there are actually 3 possibilities that would make it enjoyable again for me:
1. turn down the turbulences in general and sacrify some of "the realism" if you want to call it so.
2. rework the camera. For whatever reason DCS has a great turbulence model without shaking the world that violently
3. Give the users the ability to turn it down for themselves.

[Mustang]

To the above post, I completely understand you. The turbulence is good but the gusts tend to be too sharp and strong. Not that they are too sharp or too strong - they are more than likely quite within reason - but they perhaps happen too frequently in that way. The effect to the user is that the plane feels like it has no moment of inertia and is too light, rotating around its CoG too easily (especially in yaw). Therein, the next problem is the camera - it's too rigid and doesn't compensate like your head would. If the camera compensated, we'd more than likely accept the 'swing' more readily than we do. In reality we wouldn't see the scenery wobbling about like we do on the screen. But if you make the camera compensate more, it then becomes very difficult to click anything in the cockpit ... unless you make the mouse hold its place on the instrument panel (as it does in VR), or have a switchable 'free' and 'fixed' camera, with and without motion compensation. So, in short, each change leads to the next problem, and at every stage are a barrage of user rants...

VR sickness is very real in MSFS. I don't fly it in VR as my PC is too weak - I pre-ordered a headset just before the GPU worldwide shortages hit in 2020, but have yet to upgrade due to the eye-watering prices (maybe soon though). I've done a bit of VR in DCS, but almost none in MSFS. What little I did do was unpleasant in gusty winds, even way back in SU5/6. I wouldn't even want to try in SU10.

Edit: Just went to look for a comparison with reality, with a fixed in-cockpit camera, out of interest. I found this which is fairly comparable with MSFS on a windy day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ecyl2vLkKU (they even get thrown out of their seats a little near the end).

[ImpendingJoker]

As with all things, someone that has never done it in real life will always think they know better. That being the case, as one that actually ~has flown Cessna 172s in Florida in the summer, I can tell you the new wind dynamics are not wrong at all. If anything they are pretty tame. Here in the summer you get a LOT of convection currents, and that hot air rising is like driving a car on an unpaved road. It's almost enough to rattle your fillings out of your teeth, if you have them. I have very little issue with the gentle sway of the aircraft now because it is quite a bit closer to what you'd experience here in the Tampa Bay area on a hot day with a lot of convective currents building thunderstorms all around you. Flying in real life is not a relaxing thing. It's a challenge. Constant monitoring ofweather, radio, instruments, navigation, and traffic avoidance are what you are doing pretty much constantly. You may have lulls in any one of those things but, if it is for more than a few minutes you are more than likely not paying attention to something. Still air in the real world is quite rare, in fact I can't remember being in a small plane, helicopter, or airliner, and not experiencing some kind of buffeting. Air moves, and at times seems almost alive in the sense that if you don't respect its calm, it can kill you with its turbulence.

[DHenriques_]

As with all things, someone that has never done it in real life will always think they know better. That being the case, as one that actually ~has flown Cessna 172s in Florida in the summer, I can tell you the new wind dynamics are not wrong at all. If anything they are pretty tame. Here in the summer you get a LOT of convection currents, and that hot air rising is like driving a car on an unpaved road. It's almost enough to rattle your fillings out of your teeth, if you have them. I have very little issue with the gentle sway of the aircraft now because it is quite a bit closer to what you'd experience here in the Tampa Bay area on a hot day with a lot of convective currents building thunderstorms all around you. Flying in real life is not a relaxing thing. It's a challenge. Constant monitoring ofweather, radio, instruments, navigation, and traffic avoidance are what you are doing pretty much constantly. You may have lulls in any one of those things but, if it is for more than a few minutes you are more than likely not paying attention to something. Still air in the real world is quite rare, in fact I can't remember being in a small plane, helicopter, or airliner, and not experiencing some kind of buffeting. Air moves, and at times seems almost alive in the sense that if you don't respect its calm, it can kill you with its turbulence.

This is true.
I've done a lot of flying in Florida as well and aside from early morning and early evening the air can be quite choppy and uncomfortable on occasion during the daytime, especially in the afternoon when the hot air rises and the big Q's form.
I have to admit I'm liking FS2020 more as time passes. It needs work for sure but the potential is there. Right now for me anyway it's basically a VFR sim as Asobo for some reason seems hell bent on avoiding the absolutely unbelievably bad ATC interfacing.
As I said........a work in progress. I honestly believe that FS2020 IS the go-to sim of the future.
Time will tell.
DH