P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

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Skycat
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P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by Skycat »

Heads up -- the new Nvidia drivers released March 30, 2021 cause P3D to crash after the splash screen. It is a known issue at both the P3D forums and with Nvidia. I discovered this last night after updating my game driver, & it took me a while to figure out the solution. I rolled back to my previous driver version P3D v5.1 works properly again.
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dvm
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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by dvm »

I am not a gamer and I have a dedicated flt sim pc! That being said and with all due respect "if it aint broke don't fix it" !

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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by MarcE »

jup.. 457.30 here and happily flying ^^

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TBryson2
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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by TBryson2 »

The driver version you're describing is version 465.89.

I'm running 461.92 and P3Dv5 without any issues and have not tried 465.89.

Thank you,

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AerialShorts
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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by AerialShorts »

Unfortunately, a static unpatched system becomes more and more broken over time as vulnerabilities are discovered. Windows and even Nvidia drivers have had major security flaws discovered many times over the years. It may seem ok, and apps may run just like they used to, but your system can be coopted and used for botnets, mail relays, stashes for illicit files, keylog and report your logins and passwords, etc. A vulnerable system can be exploited just by visiting a compromised website or clicking a link that points to a compromised and boobytrapped website.

Systems that are kept patched are less vulnerable. Attackers get pushed into needing to use “zero day” exploits on fully patched systems. Those are exploits that haven’t been reported and/or patched and are expensive to buy and use. Unpatched systems fall into the realm where “script kiddies” and low brow, less skilled or worse funded hackers can attack. As each new vulnerability goes public, they rapidly get added to hacker toolboxes and scripts for automated compromises — free for download by those so inclined.

Nvidia has had a big run of dysfunctional drivers since the 3000 series cards hit. I am still on a pre-3000 series driver (with security vulnerabilities) because newer Nvidia drivers tank VR on my system and some even turn VR into a slide show. It really is that bad. Nvidia is falling on their face these days. But I still keep Windows updated, have other various security measures in place, and try to minimize my exposure by not browsing much on my simulator system. My sim system is also not used for anything financial or that could disclose logins on important websites.

Anyone interested in taking their security posture up a notch, that only has one computer to use, can look into “live linux CD”. If you need to access bank or retirement accounts or other things of similar importance, you boot from a live CD (into a linux desktop) and browse away - no Windows, no Nvidia. Since it’s a closed CD, if you do hit a compromised website or open a boobytrapped link, it can only infect that session. A reboot clears it. It’s not perfect and has its own vulnerabilities, but they tend to be less vulnerable than Windows systems simply because they are less common and less targeted.

There’s more to it than that, and some things I said have qualifications and exceptions, but letting systems go unpatched is asking for trouble that is more or less proportional to how many links you click, how much junk email you open, and how much web surfing you do, and what others on your network are doing because other household members can also invite problems in. The web is an unfriendly place and while it appears respectable, there is way more criminal and other activity going on than people realize. It’s a multinational crime center as well as an international battlefield.
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Skycat
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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by Skycat »

TBryson2 wrote: 01 Apr 2021, 08:44 The driver version you're describing is version 465.89.
Thank you for clarifying with the driver number. I posted literally while eating my breakfast and checking my phone, to warn the general base here about my experience late last night.
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dvm
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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by dvm »

AerialShorts wrote: 01 Apr 2021, 08:52 Unfortunately, a static unpatched system becomes more and more broken over time as vulnerabilities are discovered. Windows and even Nvidia drivers have had major security flaws discovered many times over the years. It may seem ok, and apps may run just like they used to, but your system can be coopted and used for botnets, mail relays, stashes for illicit files, keylog and report your logins and passwords, etc. A vulnerable system can be exploited just by visiting a compromised website or clicking a link that points to a compromised and boobytrapped website.

Systems that are kept patched are less vulnerable. Attackers get pushed into needing to use “zero day” exploits on fully patched systems. Those are exploits that haven’t been reported and/or patched and are expensive to buy and use. Unpatched systems fall into the realm where “script kiddies” and low brow, less skilled or worse funded hackers can attack. As each new vulnerability goes public, they rapidly get added to hacker toolboxes and scripts for automated compromises — free for download by those so inclined.

Nvidia has had a big run of dysfunctional drivers since the 3000 series cards hit. I am still on a pre-3000 series driver (with security vulnerabilities) because newer Nvidia drivers tank VR on my system and some even turn VR into a slide show. It really is that bad. Nvidia is falling on their face these days. But I still keep Windows updated, have other various security measures in place, and try to minimize my exposure by not browsing much on my simulator system. My sim system is also not used for anything financial or that could disclose logins on important websites.

Anyone interested in taking their security posture up a notch, that only has one computer to use, can look into “live linux CD”. If you need to access bank or retirement accounts or other things of similar importance, you boot from a live CD (into a linux desktop) and browse away - no Windows, no Nvidia. Since it’s a closed CD, if you do hit a compromised website or open a boobytrapped link, it can only infect that session. A reboot clears it. It’s not perfect and has its own vulnerabilities, but they tend to be less vulnerable than Windows systems simply because they are less common and less targeted.

There’s more to it than that, and some things I said have qualifications and exceptions, but letting systems go unpatched is asking for trouble that is more or less proportional to how many links you click, how much junk email you open, and how much web surfing you do, and what others on your network are doing because other household members can also invite problems in. The web is an unfriendly place and while it appears respectable, there is way more criminal and other activity going on than people realize. It’s a multinational crime center as well as an international battlefield.
Once again with all due respect. If you have a dedicated flight sim computer with limited internet access (no browser in use) I still say if it ain't broke don't fix it. Been simming for over 20 years using this method with minimal issues. If you use your flt sim PC for browsing you are just looking for problems. I realize this is not for everyone for many reasons $$$ for one. When I build a new PC my old rig becomes my utility PC. Of course the old adage "opinions are like a*******everyone's got one" applies. :D :D

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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by AerialShorts »

And with all due respect, I say you have a weak point. A compromised or compromisable system is a threat to whatever network it’s on. You apparently have multiple computers on your network and your unpatched flight sim system can be compromised and a springboard into others. Not using it for anything but flight simulation probably cuts your risk significantly but not updating it at all makes it much more vulnerable. Hopefully you never have the flight sim system booted and awake when using your other systems, or have it subnetted off where it can’t see your other systems and they can’t see your flight sim system.

You left out the fine points of your argument which left people with the impression you just don’t update. That is why I responded. It’s a bad impression (with all due respect, of course) and leaves anyone who follows your lead vulnerable themselves.

I don’t have my flight sim system fully patched thanks to almost a year of bad Nvidia drivers but I take precautions to always have other systems powered down when running my flight sim rig. Do as you wish but it always amuses me when someone says they never have had problems or have never been compromised. Malware now generally covers its tracks and tries to hide. You can be totally compromised and never know it. Some malware even hardens your system for you so other malware has a harder time getting in and causing the system to be suspect. Anyone who thinks they have never been compromised runs a significant chance of being dead wrong.

You can say my opinion is like an a****** but that’s your opinion and worth just that amount. I was a system administrator and was in charge of security on high-value systems in real life until I retired. I answered to people even higher up the security food chain. You don’t have to listen to my opinions, and I bet you won’t, but my opinion at least used to carry a lot of weight and I had a crap ton of security training and was certified a number of different ways.

But do carry on. And good luck.
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ClipperLuna
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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by ClipperLuna »

Update and risk "breaking" your program or don't update and risk breaking something else. Situation kind of makes me think of this Far Side cartoon

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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by AKar »

If regular updates were constantly breaking flight sim installations, to me that tells more about the flight sim installations, and of the sims in general, than of anything else.

I've got a 'general use computer' for sims. I keep it mostly up to date, with slight delay. I usually check/update significant drivers and such bi-monthly or so. I've ran into update-related significant issue maybe once every two years. And I don't remember how those were resolved, so probably it wasn't too bad.

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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by AerialShorts »

It is a difficult situation when patches break functionality. The best way is probably to patch what you can that doesn’t break the system while being mindful of the value of the information you are protecting. Dvm is to a first approximation leaving a low value system completely unpatched. That’s sort of ok unless you have other systems on that network that are “high value”. Compromised systems can also serve as intermediate hops in other ventures, illicit files can be stored on them, they can be used in botnets, etc. What you are protecting should figure into the decision but many aren’t aware of all the “fun” you can have with compromised systems regardless of their value otherwise. They become foot soldiers and great ways to cover tracks.

It’s not a one size fits all situation and there are ways to mitigate danger from unpatched systems. The problem is there are many different things to consider and home users usually (but not always) know very little about computer security, firewalls, the myriad ways systems can be compromised, etc. You can feel more safe if you go the whole nine yards with sensors on your network, packet inspection, log monitoring, firewall configuration, etc, but even that isn’t a guarantee. Few are willing to put in the time or effort to do all that and so the best advice becomes keep systems fully patched. In dvm’s case, he has a thought out posture that has some merit, but just swearing off OS patches entirely is risky and people need to know what they are doing if they decide not to patch at all. It’s bad advice for most. No updates also means he probably doesn’t have the latest antivirus definitions to even detect many viruses unless he sneakernets them over.

But it’s whatever people want to do and what they are comfortable with. Just my a****** opinion according to some.
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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by bladerunner900 »

I would imagine a computer totally isolated from the internet and any home network would be pretty safe from infiltration. Unless new stuff is introduced via a USB stick, or CD/DVD/Blu-Ray drive. That would still be potentially dangerous.

I remember getting my first computer virus before the internet was available to us mortals, via dial-up modems. It was off a free CD, off a magazine. PC Gamer I think but not sure now. What I do remember is feeling totally p*****-off and murderous to whoever was responsible.

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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by Paughco »

CONFESSION: I downloaded and installed that latest Nvidia driver as soon as I found out about it. I did a couple other things while it was downloading, such as checking email, etc. Later in the day, I started up P3D v5.1 in the usual way, and P3D crashed to desktop. "WTF?" Well, every once in a while it does that. I did a restart, and finally fully shut down and started up my PC, with the same result - CTD right after seeing about 1 second of the P3D startup scenario screen. Still, negative function (roll "When Johnny Comes Marching Home"). I tried to remember what I had done to my PC since the last time I flew in P3D. Then I remembered about the Nvidia update. I checked on the Internet how to get the previous driver, and the word was to go in to Control Panel > Device Manager > Display adapters >Nvidia GeForce GTX 1070 (I'm currently looking for a 3080), and then roll back the driver. I did that, and tried P3D again, and IT WORKED! WooHOO! I now am using driver version 27.21.14.6140.

First thing I did was fly my A2A airplane. While doing that, I wondered why I got a CTD several times while loading P3D. I've always updated my Nvidia driver as soon as get a notification from Nvidia GeForce Experience, and never had a problem. Maybe it was due to the casual way I downloaded the driver upgrade. Maybe... That's why I didn't report it here right after landing my airplane. Sorry guys.

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dvm
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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by dvm »

AerialShorts wrote: 02 Apr 2021, 11:18 And with all due respect, I say you have a weak point. A compromised or compromisable system is a threat to whatever network it’s on. You apparently have multiple computers on your network and your unpatched flight sim system can be compromised and a springboard into others. Not using it for anything but flight simulation probably cuts your risk significantly but not updating it at all makes it much more vulnerable. Hopefully you never have the flight sim system booted and awake when using your other systems, or have it subnetted off where it can’t see your other systems and they can’t see your flight sim system.

You left out the fine points of your argument which left people with the impression you just don’t update. That is why I responded. It’s a bad impression (with all due respect, of course) and leaves anyone who follows your lead vulnerable themselves.

I don’t have my flight sim system fully patched thanks to almost a year of bad Nvidia drivers but I take precautions to always have other systems powered down when running my flight sim rig. Do as you wish but it always amuses me when someone says they never have had problems or have never been compromised. Malware now generally covers its tracks and tries to hide. You can be totally compromised and never know it. Some malware even hardens your system for you so other malware has a harder time getting in and causing the system to be suspect. Anyone who thinks they have never been compromised runs a significant chance of being dead wrong.

You can say my opinion is like an a****** but that’s your opinion and worth just that amount. I was a system administrator and was in charge of security on high-value systems in real life until I retired. I answered to people even higher up the security food chain. You don’t have to listen to my opinions, and I bet you won’t, but my opinion at least used to carry a lot of weight and I had a crap ton of security training and was certified a number of different ways.

But do carry on. And good luck.
The opinions are like A****** was meant to also apply to me. I wasn't questioning your expertise and anything can happen. I don't even connect the network cable unless I absolutely have to for a specific reason. For me the potential for problems using my method is so small it is the better option for me. I guarantee updating drivers unnecessarily has more potential for problems in my experience. Perhaps it is ignorance on my part but as you said I will carry on. I think it is more than luck that I have not had very few problems in the past twenty years.

Peace Brother !

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AerialShorts
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Re: P3D and Nvidia game drivers 30 MAR 2021

Post by AerialShorts »

@Paughco - I couldn’t find where I originally saw it but found this at the P3D forums: https://www.prepar3d.com/forum/viewtopi ... 6&start=15 - 465.89 is bad news and not recommended.

@dvm - Apologies. I thought you were referring to me. The way consumer software is pushed out the door is pretty shameful as evidenced by the continued Nvidia driver issues and how Nvidia’s latest driver carries a warning at the P3D forums to not install it because it causes CTDs.

Vulnerabilities are a fact of life. It’s probably a saying everywhere in computer security that the only truly safe system is never turned on and never allowed on a network. The trick is to protect systems that are used and that always involves compromise. Like I said, my own system runs an old Nvidia driver out of necessity. Nvidia drivers have occasionally had really bad security issues and run with system privileges. Plus it’s Windows that even fully patched won’t ever be fully trusted on my network. I always have other systems powered off when I run my Windows box and it sounds like you do similar with your system. It’s hard to have these kinds of discussions in public forums because without qualifying and explaining the better advice, the fallback is the best of the sometimes worst advice - try to stay fully patched.
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