I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

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jsbrewster1
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by jsbrewster1 »

I slightly regret my statement. It was probably an overreaction. But every thread that mentions MSFS, Cristi has to leap on with both feet, and trash MSFS. I've got lots of hours in FSX and some in P3D, and out of the box, without any add-ons, they are much worse than MSFS. I can fly MSFS without any add-ons and still enjoy the experience. Do I anxiously wait for A2A to provide a more realistic experience, yes, I think we all do or we wouldn't be here. And if MSFS were the horrible awful platform that Cristi posits, then A2A wouldn't be developing aircraft for it. I'm just tired of seeing MSFS trashed over and over and over by the same person, regardless of anyone else's views, and I reacted. Again, I do regret making the statement, and I'm not going to react any further.
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cristi.neagu
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by cristi.neagu »

jsbrewster1 wrote: 12 Jul 2021, 12:33 But every thread that mentions MSFS, Cristi has to leap on with both feet, and trash MSFS.
Please quote any post where I have "trashed" FS2020. You'll have trouble digging through the posts in which i've defended FS2020.
jsbrewster1 wrote: 12 Jul 2021, 12:33 I've got lots of hours in FSX and some in P3D, and out of the box, without any add-ons, they are much worse than MSFS. I can fly MSFS without any add-ons and still enjoy the experience.
And yet, for some reason, I'm not telling you to go back to FS2020... Almost like I can accept that people simply enjoy flight simulation in different ways...
jsbrewster1 wrote: 12 Jul 2021, 12:33 And if MSFS were the horrible awful platform that Cristi posits, then A2A wouldn't be developing aircraft for it. I'm just tired of seeing MSFS trashed over and over and over by the same person, regardless of anyone else's views, and I reacted.
Again: Quote me. I quoted you directly when I replied to you. I didn't invent anything about what you said. So go on and quote exactly where I said FS2020 is "horrible". Quote where I "trashed" FS2020".

This is what I am talking about. No one can share their critical, factual opinion of FS2020 without someone jumping out of nowhere inventing all sorts of nonsense. I am eagerly awaiting for the next person to tell me how I'm in the wrong for defending myself or for asking for evidence when someone invents such lies about me. Or, who knows, maybe we can get back on topic.

I'm starting to think that "I am not getting MSFS2020 until..." the community surrounding it becomes less toxic, but not only have I already got it, a toxic community never stopped me from enjoying the things I enjoy in the past, so I see no reason why that should be the case now.

jsbrewster1
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by jsbrewster1 »

I apologize to everyone in this forum for my actions. I will stop participating and and just look for new releases from A2A for MSFS.
Jeff Brewster
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US Air Force (retired)
"...and miles to go before I sleep..." - RF

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jeepinforfun
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by jeepinforfun »

I have a question, which flight characteristics are closer to real world? Check out this video and notice in P3D it looks like the aircraft is flying on a spindle whereas the one in MSFS seems to be floating around in the air currents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYMEbTLwok4&t=8s
Take care, Brett

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cristi.neagu
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by cristi.neagu »

jeepinforfun wrote: 12 Jul 2021, 16:30 I have a question, which flight characteristics are closer to real world? Check out this video and notice in P3D it looks like the aircraft is flying on a spindle whereas the one in MSFS seems to be floating around in the air currents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYMEbTLwok4&t=8s
I wonder how much of that is camera movement. With P3D, it looks like the camera is tied to the centre of gravity of the plane, while with FS2020 the camera looks like it's not tied to the plane. It might be that the plane in FS2020 gets extra motion around the centre of reference of the model. So it's hard to tell if the movement is there in P3D too, but we just don't see it cause the camera is tied to the plane CG. Either way, the flight model in FS2020 does feel a lot more dynamic than P3D, with a lot more movement. That's definitely a step in the right direction. They just need to fix some of the more obvious bugs.

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jeepinforfun
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by jeepinforfun »

If the camera in MSFS moved about some than wouldn't the view of the landmass move too?

Anyway what I'm asking is if a plane does or can get knocked about that much as shown in that video.
Take care, Brett

SWLights/AccuFeel/Cub/Mustang/Skyhawk/Cherokee/Skylane/Comanche/Thunderbolt/Spitfire/FlyingFortress/Stratocruiser

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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by MarcE »

jsbrewster1 wrote: 12 Jul 2021, 16:08 I apologize to everyone in this forum for my actions. I will stop participating and and just look for new releases from A2A for MSFS.
I didn't follow the discussion or argument so I won't comment or rate it... But sometimes it's totally enough (and certainly a good idea) to take a deep breath, keep in mind that we're all having the same hobby here, just maybe with a different approach, that we're here for fun and to enjoy our leisure time and start over. It would certainly be a pity if someone stopped participating because of some disagreements or even silly misunderstandings.

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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by MarcE »

jeepinforfun wrote: 13 Jul 2021, 16:15 If the camera in MSFS moved about some than wouldn't the view of the landmass move too?

Anyway what I'm asking is if a plane does or can get knocked about that much as shown in that video.
Sure it can, I've been thrown around quite violently and knocked my head at the canopy although I was strapped in with a 5 point seat belt. But that's rather due to thermals or upwinds over hills. Large areas of waters or forests are usually rather calm. Windy sure, gusty... but not bumpy.

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cristi.neagu
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by cristi.neagu »

jeepinforfun wrote: 13 Jul 2021, 16:15 If the camera in MSFS moved about some than wouldn't the view of the landmass move too?
I would expect it to, yes. But it may be hard to tell, as the scenery is pretty far away. But like I said, I think it's far more likely that the plane in FS2020 moves around more than in P3D, especially if we're talking about planes that use the default flight model.

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Paughco
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by Paughco »

Dunno. I'm pretty used to P3D. Right now I've got version 5.2 with hotfix 1. I think that Lockheed Martin is working hard to catch up to the scenery aspects of MSFS, and by the time I'm finally able to replace my Nvidia 1080 with a 3080 GPU the scenery in P3D will be really great. It's pretty great right now, but it'll be even better then. OK - I've never flown in MSFS, but I don't want to. Another thing: I'm used to all the keyboard commands, and my controls are set up perfectly in P3D. Here's what it would take me to install MSFS:

1) A2A releases all my aircraft in MSFS, and I read on the forums reports are that they are really great - maybe even better than the P3D versions;
2) I've got an up-to-date GPU in my Jetline computer; and
3) Maybe three shots of Jim Beam.

Maybe I'll take my T-6 out for a few touch & goes at KAWO.

Seeya
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bladerunner900
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by bladerunner900 »

Paughco wrote: 13 Jul 2021, 20:09... Another thing: I'm used to all the keyboard commands, and my controls are set up perfectly in P3D.
Actually, that is a very good point. My CH Pro Throttle seems not to be stable in MSFS. It refuses to maintain a smooth calibration.

Steve.

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jeepinforfun
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by jeepinforfun »

MarcE wrote: 13 Jul 2021, 18:08
jeepinforfun wrote: 13 Jul 2021, 16:15 If the camera in MSFS moved about some than wouldn't the view of the landmass move too?

Anyway what I'm asking is if a plane does or can get knocked about that much as shown in that video.
Sure it can, I've been thrown around quite violently and knocked my head at the canopy although I was strapped in with a 5 point seat belt. But that's rather due to thermals or upwinds over hills. Large areas of waters or forests are usually rather calm. Windy sure, gusty... but not bumpy.
Thanks for the reply.

I do like the way my aircraft seem to float better in MSFS that the fly on the rail/spindle feeling in FSX and just wanted to know if RW pilots felt that MSFS was more accurate in that way. I basically fly from the cockpit view and was surprised by the amount of movement in the video I linked above. From the cockpit you see the movement but it doesn't look as bad as it does from outside and behind.

I do miss the Accusim birds but have been enjoying the selection of planes in MSFS Premium for the time being and flying by map and watch is a absolute joy in MSFS.

I do hope Asobo and A2A get that last piece of the puzzle worked out.
Take care, Brett

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Piper_EEWL
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by Piper_EEWL »

jeepinforfun wrote: 14 Jul 2021, 13:30 I do hope Asobo and A2A get that last piece of the puzzle worked out.
Amen to that!
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AKar
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by AKar »

Just as a side note, as an (ex) glider pilot having just tried a bit of some things different as well, I'm rather obsessive myself on this "flying on the rails" feeling (and yaw stability in general), as the necessity of active yaw control is basically the thing particular to gliders in comparison to many other airplanes you can 'begin in'.

Now, have you ever taken a "dash-cam video" in an aircraft, with something of the physical structure visible in the frame? You'll probably note that the nose is swinging around way more than you thought it would. This becomes an issue in flightsims that have, essentially, fixed cameras, whereas our eyes in reality are fairly well 'image-stabilized' on to the subject we concentrate on. Indeed, a realistic depiction of many airplanes becomes uncomfortable if using fixed cameras in the flight sim. Effectively, you are having a dash-cam view in the sim, whereas your recollection of the actual flight is based on more stabilized view.

As an example, the A2A Bonanza really does not need any rudder to fly safely around the sim environment (outside the obvious maneuvers that use the rudder, obviously!), but you do get a really uncomfortable feel of the yaw swinging, yet stable. It kind of feels overdone. Now, I've never flown nor been a passenger on a Bonanza, V-tail or otherwise, so I need to quote the folks I know having flown such Bonanza. And they recall no outstanding issues on yaw behavior, even when asked specifically. Indeed, 'getting sick' onboard is usually quoted to affect the rear seat passengers, who mostly see sideways, this yawing motion being greatly enforced to them looking down the wing into the distance. Effectively, lacking the "image stabilization" we have when sitting up front looking towards where our brains figure we are flying.

As a result of this, we've got, I don't know how many, aircraft simulations with yaw dampers that don't yaw-damp, for they don't even properly simulate the flight dynamics effects in the background! I guess, because if seen through our fixed dash-cam tunnel vision, they would be deemed exaggerated.

This is not to say anything about the-sim-2020 flight model, as I've never tried it out. Just a general observation in what comes to the arguments around for and against the flight model in the 2020 in this particular aspect, based on time using FSX/P3D, DCS, Condor, Silent Wings and some others.

-Esa

MarcE
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Re: I am not getting MSFS2020 until...

Post by MarcE »

jeepinforfun wrote: 14 Jul 2021, 13:30
MarcE wrote: 13 Jul 2021, 18:08
jeepinforfun wrote: 13 Jul 2021, 16:15 If the camera in MSFS moved about some than wouldn't the view of the landmass move too?

Anyway what I'm asking is if a plane does or can get knocked about that much as shown in that video.
Sure it can, I've been thrown around quite violently and knocked my head at the canopy although I was strapped in with a 5 point seat belt. But that's rather due to thermals or upwinds over hills. Large areas of waters or forests are usually rather calm. Windy sure, gusty... but not bumpy.
Thanks for the reply.

I do like the way my aircraft seem to float better in MSFS that the fly on the rail/spindle feeling in FSX and just wanted to know if RW pilots felt that MSFS was more accurate in that way. I basically fly from the cockpit view and was surprised by the amount of movement in the video I linked above. From the cockpit you see the movement but it doesn't look as bad as it does from outside and behind.

I do miss the Accusim birds but have been enjoying the selection of planes in MSFS Premium for the time being and flying by map and watch is a absolute joy in MSFS.

I do hope Asobo and A2A get that last piece of the puzzle worked out.
IMO what Accusim achieves is superior to anything I‘ve seen so far in P3D, XP or MSFS. MSFS is definitely good and flying the small airplanes there „feels“ a lot like flying an airplane in the real world. But the simulation of moving air in MSFS is rather some rocking of the plane than being affected by moving air. A gust from the side in reality will not throw the airplane around or whatever it does in MSFS, but the gust will hit the vertical stabilizer and will swing the nose into the wind a bit. Not 30 degrees, but a bit. If you mount a gopro on the panel in a real plane you will see the runway move left and right all the time, that‘s totally normal. Wind does have an effect. If the gust come from the front or back you‘ll SEE the air speed rise and fall, that‘s why you add speed if it‘s gusty. You will FEEL increasing and decreasing lift, but you can barely see the nose pitch up or down. Thermals or luv winds will/can lift a wing that you have to counter with the ailerons.

The problem of any PC simulator is the lack of feel-of-pants. The most important flight sensor or instrument on any approach is the butt and stomach. So what MSFS or XP do is exaggerate visually, the airplane will dance around all the time while a mounted camera looking forward would hardly see anything but you‘d feel the effect with your body. Accusim in P3D does all that much more subtle and less obstrusive, maybe by changing the noise of the wind, with less rough but more consistent attitude changes. It feels more natural in an A2A addon, I can‘t really tell why.

Edit: a lol, I just read that Esa said basically the same :D double evidence ^^

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