I think I'm starting to understand A2A's ongoing dilemma releasing the Comanche for MSFS2020: The platform itself simply has too many persistent issues for what should be a high fidelity simulation engine that can accommodate A2A's level of professional standards. With the release of SU10 for MSFS2020, Asobo have turned the sim into a 3rd rate arcade game in regard to ground physics and wind gust modeling. It's now impossible to properly land a GA aircraft in any kind of crosswind without rubberbanding back and forth over the centerline on rollout. The unrealistic rapid-fire wind gust modeling with MSFS2020 SU10 is absolutely horrible and not at all like actual wind behavior. Couple the new unrealistic wind gust modeling in SU10 with the already well-known ground friction issues in MSFS2020 that pre-existed the release of SU10, and it's complete chaos unless you're a 12 year old kid playing on his Xbox and not knowing the difference.
One grasps the true demographics of Aosbo's customer base when browsing through the official Microsoft Flight Simulator forums and reading posts from individuals praising the new SU10 wind modeling (as in non-pilots who just want to land without crashing and care little about anything else). "I love the new wind gusts! I landed and scraped the wing a couple of times but I got her down!" "Didn't manage to keep it on the runway but got it stopped in the grass so it worked out, haha!" "Almost rolled over in the pattern during one gust but made it more fun!"
These same people would be just as happy flying a plane in GTA with the same relative amount of actual realism, but they love the extra challenge of flying an aircraft that has no commonality with real-world physics. Yippee.
At present though, MSFS2020 is essentially an arcade game when on the ground. Ground physics and tire friction have always been wrong, but now with the extremely unrealistic modeling of wind gusts at the surface introduced with the MSFS2020 SU10 patch, precision flight tracking the centerline during takeoffs or landing will never happen. Instead, the aircraft will 'rubberband' all over the runway during a wind gust as both the ground friction bug and new wind gust bug converge together. The situation will very likely get worse with the release of successive patches as the hoards of Xbox gamers continue to laud the extra challenge of landing and not crashing. The whole situation is beyond frustrating.
I can only imagine A2A's own level of frustration with the MSFS2020 platform and I would completely understand if they never release any products for MSFS2020, being forced to compromise the realism and fidelity that's made A2A the company that's the watermark standard of flight realism that it is today.
Having said all this, I am personally abandoning the MSFS2020 trainwreck and reverting back to good 'ole P3D. I sincerely hope A2A will consider continuing development for the Prepar3D platform for those of us that refuse to try to land without crashing on every flight.
MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
Agreed! Also, since SU10, every time I start taxiing with the Maddog X, the game pulls a CTD....PITA. I hope Asobo will correct the faults in MSFS, as there is great potential.
- lonewulf47
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Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
Please read the footer on the Splash Screen: "Starting the game".... Any more questions?Arman45 wrote: ↑29 Sep 2022, 11:09 At present though, MSFS2020 is essentially an arcade game when on the ground. Ground physics and tire friction have always been wrong, but now with the extremely unrealistic modeling of wind gusts at the surface introduced with the MSFS2020 SU10 patch, precision flight tracking the centerline during takeoffs or landing will never happen. Instead, the aircraft will 'rubberband' all over the runway during a wind gust as both the ground friction bug and new wind gust bug converge together. The situation will very likely get worse with the release of successive patches as the hoards of Xbox gamers continue to laud the extra challenge of landing and not crashing. The whole situation is beyond frustrating.
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Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
I'm having a great time flying MSFS, I don't know what you all are talking about. And I find the new wind gusts to be more realistic than before. But enjoy your 20 year old flight sim forever.
Jeff Brewster
KC-135 Navigator
US Air Force (retired)
"...and miles to go before I sleep..." - RF
KC-135 Navigator
US Air Force (retired)
"...and miles to go before I sleep..." - RF
- DHenriques_
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Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
I've been using FS2020 now for some time using various aircraft from other developers so as to get a handle on what's being done with the flight modeling.Arman45 wrote: ↑29 Sep 2022, 11:09 I think I'm starting to understand A2A's ongoing dilemma releasing the Comanche for MSFS2020: The platform itself simply has too many persistent issues for what should be a high fidelity simulation engine that can accommodate A2A's level of professional standards. With the release of SU10 for MSFS2020, Asobo have turned the sim into a 3rd rate arcade game in regard to ground physics and wind gust modeling. It's now impossible to properly land a GA aircraft in any kind of crosswind without rubberbanding back and forth over the centerline on rollout. The unrealistic rapid-fire wind gust modeling with MSFS2020 SU10 is absolutely horrible and not at all like actual wind behavior. Couple the new unrealistic wind gust modeling in SU10 with the already well-known ground friction issues in MSFS2020 that pre-existed the release of SU10, and it's complete chaos unless you're a 12 year old kid playing on his Xbox and not knowing the difference.
One grasps the true demographics of Aosbo's customer base when browsing through the official Microsoft Flight Simulator forums and reading posts from individuals praising the new SU10 wind modeling (as in non-pilots who just want to land without crashing and care little about anything else). "I love the new wind gusts! I landed and scraped the wing a couple of times but I got her down!" "Didn't manage to keep it on the runway but got it stopped in the grass so it worked out, haha!" "Almost rolled over in the pattern during one gust but made it more fun!"
These same people would be just as happy flying a plane in GTA with the same relative amount of actual realism, but they love the extra challenge of flying an aircraft that has no commonality with real-world physics. Yippee.
At present though, MSFS2020 is essentially an arcade game when on the ground. Ground physics and tire friction have always been wrong, but now with the extremely unrealistic modeling of wind gusts at the surface introduced with the MSFS2020 SU10 patch, precision flight tracking the centerline during takeoffs or landing will never happen. Instead, the aircraft will 'rubberband' all over the runway during a wind gust as both the ground friction bug and new wind gust bug converge together. The situation will very likely get worse with the release of successive patches as the hoards of Xbox gamers continue to laud the extra challenge of landing and not crashing. The whole situation is beyond frustrating.
I can only imagine A2A's own level of frustration with the MSFS2020 platform and I would completely understand if they never release any products for MSFS2020, being forced to compromise the realism and fidelity that's made A2A the company that's the watermark standard of flight realism that it is today.
Having said all this, I am personally abandoning the MSFS2020 trainwreck and reverting back to good 'ole P3D. I sincerely hope A2A will consider continuing development for the Prepar3D platform for those of us that refuse to try to land without crashing on every flight.
I've found two areas ( outside the flight model) that for some reason Asobo just doesn't want to look at. These two areas are lateral control on the ground and the ATC interfacing which is simply rubbish.
I've managed to tone down the lateral issue by REALLY lowering the axis settings to almost nothing but the ATC is SO bad it's useless to anyone seeking a virtual experience even coming close to being realistic.
Just doing a normal VFR local flight and returning to the airport using the ATC menu I get airplanes reporting at 200 feet asking for landing instructions, multiple aircraft cleared for landing on the same runway AND crossing runways at the same time, constant looping repeat requests for non-existent airplanes to clear the runways........and especially annoying, requests on final to "go around" for no apparent reason.
ATC is a royal mess ! I don't even want to. THINK about flying in instrument conditions. Asobo would no doubt kill me and everyone I had on board in minutes. LOL
I'm still left with the impression I formed long ago about this sim. Asobo did a first class job with the graphics. I mean this program is BEAUTIFUL. But for real world pilots seeking a virtual experience near the real thing Asobo has a way to go to reach that point. Personally I hope they eventually decide which way they want to go with FS2020........a game.........or a simulator.
Obviously there are HUGE issues with their attempt to maximize both markets.
I hope they make the right decisions in time as the potential for this simulation AS A SIMULATOR is tremendous.
Dudley Henriques
Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
I get the feeling that MSFS is a follow the XBox money simulation.
Ryzen 7 5800X3D liquid cooled, OC to 4.5 ghz, Radeon XFX 6900XT Black edition, 2 tb M2 drive, 32 gb ddr4 ram, Asus Hero Crosshair VIII mother board, and some other stuff I forget exactly what.
Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
It's another pointless debate that I don't want to get into, but I think Asobo are trying to make a sim that suits ALL. A noble goal, and one they will never fully achieve for all manner of reasons, but all progress has some setbacks along the way. The overall net result is a positive one. MSFS is certainly more accessible than any clunky sim before it. Yes, it brings in gamers, but did none of you ever fly around for "fun" in external view and zoom under bridges in simulators of old, back when you were younger? The serious flying - for many users - came later I suspect
I haven't flown SU10 much yet, but if you're using live weather then I am sure gusts will vary depending on reported conditions, so while one person might rave about them, the next may be horrified. A compromise might be a menu option to allow users to reduce gusts by a percentage, so if you're in the camp that they're way too strong, you can reduce them. We'll see.
I found FSX and all previous simulators to be quite stale in terms of atmospheric modelling; the old 'on rails' feeling. I have never had that in MSFS where the air feels alive and natural. No, MSFS doesn't have the best ground physics, I agree there, but I certainly don't find them any worse than FSX where it almost felt like the flight model 'turned off' the moment you contacted the runway. Perhaps the problem is that the atmospheric modelling improvements have outpaced the outdated ground contact model, so now we have a new problem we didn't have before.
The ATC is a definite step backwards, I agree with Dudley there. On a related note, it's also frustrating that you can't change your flight plan mid-flight, such as if you run into IFR conditions and didn't bother to set your destination in the world map before take off. Same as if you do a second flight in the same session. The ATC has no knowledge so can't direct you. FSX had that at least.
I haven't flown SU10 much yet, but if you're using live weather then I am sure gusts will vary depending on reported conditions, so while one person might rave about them, the next may be horrified. A compromise might be a menu option to allow users to reduce gusts by a percentage, so if you're in the camp that they're way too strong, you can reduce them. We'll see.
I found FSX and all previous simulators to be quite stale in terms of atmospheric modelling; the old 'on rails' feeling. I have never had that in MSFS where the air feels alive and natural. No, MSFS doesn't have the best ground physics, I agree there, but I certainly don't find them any worse than FSX where it almost felt like the flight model 'turned off' the moment you contacted the runway. Perhaps the problem is that the atmospheric modelling improvements have outpaced the outdated ground contact model, so now we have a new problem we didn't have before.
The ATC is a definite step backwards, I agree with Dudley there. On a related note, it's also frustrating that you can't change your flight plan mid-flight, such as if you run into IFR conditions and didn't bother to set your destination in the world map before take off. Same as if you do a second flight in the same session. The ATC has no knowledge so can't direct you. FSX had that at least.
Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
I guess I had that coming, lol. I do seem to remember, however, that this rogue company named A2A somehow managed to turn Prepar3d into a professional, military-grade simulation that is currently being used to train U.S. Air Force pilots. "It's fine if the aircraft in the simulator don't fly realistically at all" said no U.S. Air Force general, ever (when soliciting contracts to fulfill undergraduate pilot training requirements). It's all about not only about programming talent, but also attitude that money isn't king - the customer is.lonewulf47 wrote: ↑29 Sep 2022, 12:39 Please read the footer on the Splash Screen: "Starting the game".... Any more questions?
Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
What's so frustrating Dudley is that the SU9 version of MSFS2020, while not without many flaws in terms of ground physics, was at least manageable during takeoff and landing with live weather enabled. One could adjust sensitivities on controllers and practice a refined flight technique that allowed for simulating much of the real-world procedure for crosswind landings. It wasn't a complete process but nevertheless enjoyable. Asobo wrecked this capability with the forced use of Service Update 10 and never bothered to complete thorough testing of a new feature (surface wind gusts). Asobo simply decided to put together a half-baked wind simulation and quickly dish it out as an 'enhancement' to MSFS2020. MSFS2020 is currently not realistic at all with the way sim aircraft react to winds during landing and takeoff, whether a crosswind or headwind.DHenriquesA2A wrote: ↑29 Sep 2022, 13:09 I've been using FS2020 now for some time using various aircraft from other developers so as to get a handle on what's being done with the flight modeling.
I've found two areas ( outside the flight model) that for some reason Asobo just doesn't want to look at. These two areas are lateral control on the ground and the ATC interfacing which is simply rubbish.
I've managed to tone down the lateral issue by REALLY lowering the axis settings to almost nothing but the ATC is SO bad it's useless to anyone seeking a virtual experience even coming close to being realistic.
Just doing a normal VFR local flight and returning to the airport using the ATC menu I get airplanes reporting at 200 feet asking for landing instructions, multiple aircraft cleared for landing on the same runway AND crossing runways at the same time, constant looping repeat requests for non-existent airplanes to clear the runways........and especially annoying, requests on final to "go around" for no apparent reason.
ATC is a royal mess ! I don't even want to. THINK about flying in instrument conditions. Asobo would no doubt kill me and everyone I had on board in minutes. LOL
I'm still left with the impression I formed long ago about this sim. Asobo did a first class job with the graphics. I mean this program is BEAUTIFUL. But for real world pilots seeking a virtual experience near the real thing Asobo has a way to go to reach that point. Personally I hope they eventually decide which way they want to go with FS2020........a game.........or a simulator.
Obviously there are HUGE issues with their attempt to maximize both markets.
I hope they make the right decisions in time as the potential for this simulation AS A SIMULATOR is tremendous.
Dudley Henriques
I wonder if Asobo tried to feed the serious simmer crowd by throwing a carrot (albeit deeply flawed) like implementing wind gusts while at the same time staying confident the gamer crowd simply wouldn't care either way.
Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
While I found the pre-SU10 gusts and turbulence a bit too tame, what they've done in the latest iteration is a disaster. If you add to it the flawed configuration of most default planes (i.e. the fact that they have hardly any inertia and thus behave like paper airplanes in the wind), the effects are ridiculous.
However, I think there is some light at the end of the tunnel -- it has been announced (or perhaps gossiped) that the lead engineer responsible for flight modeling in the Il-2 series will be joining Asobo (https://stormbirds.blog/2022/09/12/lead ... tles-team/). If it is officially confirmed, it'll be excellent news, as the Il-2 franchise had an excellent FM. Time will tell, but I'm badly tempted to reinstall P3D for the time being...
However, I think there is some light at the end of the tunnel -- it has been announced (or perhaps gossiped) that the lead engineer responsible for flight modeling in the Il-2 series will be joining Asobo (https://stormbirds.blog/2022/09/12/lead ... tles-team/). If it is officially confirmed, it'll be excellent news, as the Il-2 franchise had an excellent FM. Time will tell, but I'm badly tempted to reinstall P3D for the time being...
Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
Totally agree 100% - and well put. Does A2A have any plans for XP12?Arman45 wrote: ↑29 Sep 2022, 11:09 I think I'm starting to understand A2A's ongoing dilemma releasing the Comanche for MSFS2020: The platform itself simply has too many persistent issues for what should be a high fidelity simulation engine that can accommodate A2A's level of professional standards. ... [CUT] ...
- DHenriques_
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Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
Without getting too far into specifics I will say that everything considered I see enough potential in what Asobo and Microsoft have achieved so far that I feel confident in saying that in my opinion Microsoft Flight Simulator is without a doubt the sim of the future.Arman45 wrote: ↑30 Sep 2022, 02:46What's so frustrating Dudley is that the SU9 version of MSFS2020, while not without many flaws in terms of ground physics, was at least manageable during takeoff and landing with live weather enabled. One could adjust sensitivities on controllers and practice a refined flight technique that allowed for simulating much of the real-world procedure for crosswind landings. It wasn't a complete process but nevertheless enjoyable. Asobo wrecked this capability with the forced use of Service Update 10 and never bothered to complete thorough testing of a new feature (surface wind gusts). Asobo simply decided to put together a half-baked wind simulation and quickly dish it out as an 'enhancement' to MSFS2020. MSFS2020 is currently not realistic at all with the way sim aircraft react to winds during landing and takeoff, whether a crosswind or headwind.DHenriquesA2A wrote: ↑29 Sep 2022, 13:09 I've been using FS2020 now for some time using various aircraft from other developers so as to get a handle on what's being done with the flight modeling.
I've found two areas ( outside the flight model) that for some reason Asobo just doesn't want to look at. These two areas are lateral control on the ground and the ATC interfacing which is simply rubbish.
I've managed to tone down the lateral issue by REALLY lowering the axis settings to almost nothing but the ATC is SO bad it's useless to anyone seeking a virtual experience even coming close to being realistic.
Just doing a normal VFR local flight and returning to the airport using the ATC menu I get airplanes reporting at 200 feet asking for landing instructions, multiple aircraft cleared for landing on the same runway AND crossing runways at the same time, constant looping repeat requests for non-existent airplanes to clear the runways........and especially annoying, requests on final to "go around" for no apparent reason.
ATC is a royal mess ! I don't even want to. THINK about flying in instrument conditions. Asobo would no doubt kill me and everyone I had on board in minutes. LOL
I'm still left with the impression I formed long ago about this sim. Asobo did a first class job with the graphics. I mean this program is BEAUTIFUL. But for real world pilots seeking a virtual experience near the real thing Asobo has a way to go to reach that point. Personally I hope they eventually decide which way they want to go with FS2020........a game.........or a simulator.
Obviously there are HUGE issues with their attempt to maximize both markets.
I hope they make the right decisions in time as the potential for this simulation AS A SIMULATOR is tremendous.
Dudley Henriques
I wonder if Asobo tried to feed the serious simmer crowd by throwing a carrot (albeit deeply flawed) like implementing wind gusts while at the same time staying confident the gamer crowd simply wouldn't care either way.
Yes, it has its faults, and some of them are glaring to say the least, but trust me on this one folks, Microsoft has invested heavily in their simulation effort and they WILL work it out. Microsoft is one of the most competitive companies I have ever worked with and they don't like losing. This persona infiltrates everything they do.
Personally I saw a major flaw in their marketing strategy when they made the decision to attack two markets totally..........and I mean........TOTALLY opposed and unrelated to each other; those being the gaming and real world flying communities. These two groups are like mixing oil and water. What is prime to the real world flying community is not all that important to the gamer.
Right now FS2020 is in a state of flux. The program with each update gets a little bit better in some areas and takes a step back in others. It's a growing process that unfortunately we as enthusiasts have to endure.
Personally I'm very positive about things. Here at A2A, contrary to what some might believe, we are making headway toward a release of our first aircraft specifically developed for FS2020.
Once that happens we will be entering a new era with our Accusim program. There are some last minute things we want to straighten out and tweak before we take the final plunge but it's coming.
I won't tease all of you with my usual pep talk. Just know we're working on it every day. Scott just called me the other day. He was VERY excited about a breakthrough concerning our flight model.
I'll be testing the Comanche as soon as it's ready.
I can't say much more than this. We want it to be right. We are A2A ! It HAS to be right !!!!!!!!
Dudley Henriques
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Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
Dudley,
regarding your comment about Asobo refuseing to work on the ground model, I sincerely hope that they have waited for them to complete the influencing surroundings and climb the mountain from the base. If they had fixed their terrible ground friction model now and added these turbulence/gust effects later they would probably have had to start with the ground model again. The gusts won't be affected by ground friction but a takeoff run will definitely be affected by gusts. So I HOPE they have a plan behind all that. Right now I don't see a usable MSFS since TO and landing belong to a flight, I'd never start and end it in the air, even in a sim, but I hope it will become better soon.
regarding your comment about Asobo refuseing to work on the ground model, I sincerely hope that they have waited for them to complete the influencing surroundings and climb the mountain from the base. If they had fixed their terrible ground friction model now and added these turbulence/gust effects later they would probably have had to start with the ground model again. The gusts won't be affected by ground friction but a takeoff run will definitely be affected by gusts. So I HOPE they have a plan behind all that. Right now I don't see a usable MSFS since TO and landing belong to a flight, I'd never start and end it in the air, even in a sim, but I hope it will become better soon.
- DHenriques_
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Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
I don't believe I ever said "Asobo refused to work on the ground model". I'm sure you misunderstood my meaning. No harm done. I just want to be clear on things.MarcE wrote: ↑30 Sep 2022, 05:35 Dudley,
regarding your comment about Asobo refusing to work on the ground model, I sincerely hope that they have waited for them to complete the influencing surroundings and climb the mountain from the base. If they had fixed their terrible ground friction model now and added these turbulence/gust effects later they would probably have had to start with the ground model again. The gusts won't be affected by ground friction but a takeoff run will definitely be affected by gusts. So I HOPE they have a plan behind all that. Right now I don't see a usable MSFS since TO and landing belong to a flight, I'd never start and end it in the air, even in a sim, but I hope it will become better soon.
What I said or meant as the case may be is that the flight model needs work. The ground friction issue has been around for a long time now. I've managed to take some of the lateral "quickness" out by drastically changing the sensitivity settings but it still needs work. Our Accusim programming should help this somewhat.
Like you I'm a realist when it comes to the simulator. For me the flight should be accurate from ramp to ramp and this is what I'm looking for when I test an add on.
I should have the Comanche soon and we have a very good team working on it. We'll see what develops.
DH
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Re: MSFS2020 is completely unrealistic with new wind model
Apologies, yes, English is a foreign language for me, "refuse" is indeed a too strong word. =)DHenriquesA2A wrote: ↑30 Sep 2022, 06:32I don't believe I ever said "Asobo refused to work on the ground model". I'm sure you misunderstood my meaning. No harm done.MarcE wrote: ↑30 Sep 2022, 05:35 Dudley,
regarding your comment about Asobo refusing to work on the ground model, I sincerely hope that they have waited for them to complete the influencing surroundings and climb the mountain from the base. If they had fixed their terrible ground friction model now and added these turbulence/gust effects later they would probably have had to start with the ground model again. The gusts won't be affected by ground friction but a takeoff run will definitely be affected by gusts. So I HOPE they have a plan behind all that. Right now I don't see a usable MSFS since TO and landing belong to a flight, I'd never start and end it in the air, even in a sim, but I hope it will become better soon.
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