Anti-Icer Gauge & ILS Questions

[Avio]

Hi David,

For the ICE gauge to appear, what I did was I insert the following into the panel.cfg of whatever A2A aircraft I want to have that :-

gauge01=ICE!IceWarning,1,0,20,20 (under Window00)

A2A use Shift-1 as a main panel, and therefore to toggle appearance of ICE gauge on or off, just hit Shift-1 alternatively, and a little black box would appear/disappear from top left corner of screen. Very neat.

Have not got a chance to test out functionality under icing condition yet though.

Thanks for all the help folks.

Avio

[Avio]

Hi JP,

I think the prop deice uses electric heating, and not deice fluid. I tried it and it seems to notch up amp current a little.

Anyone else notices this?

Avio

[DavidHerky]

A very interesting thread. In fact all you guys on the forum are very knowledgeable. Its refreshing to be amongst pilots!

I hope I can add my two penneth here.

The original question about ILS frequencies. If I may suggest something I use all the time in every simulation and not just the specially scripted sims like NGX.

Its MCE or Multi Crew Experience.

MCE in use on the B17 controls many functions. For example, if you say "Set 111.15 on Nav one" , the co pilot will set it for you. The same applies with ADF, Squawk or ATC frequency, Com1, in fact, every item on the radios can be set by your MCE co-pilot. Confirm by Shift+6. This is very useful, as any real world Captain will attest.

Co-pilot can also raise the gear and flaps. Other controls have to be scripted. Either by you or the MCE guys can help. The support is excellent.

Now the subject of ice.

The wing anti ice boot pressure shows 8 psi on idle, on the ground, if its activated.

Again activate this with MCE by saying "Wing Anti Ice on/Off". Although not realistic in the ship, since the switch is on your (left hand seat) side and I cant see the co-pilot reaching over you to action the switch. But its nice to know this works also. MCE co-pilot will reply "Anti Ice on/off" and throw the switch!


The propeller de ice may not yet be modelled with MCE. If you say " Anti ice on", the co-pilot replies "engine anti ice one, two, three, four, switched on". I am unsure as to what he is switching on. If its in the cfg and air files then he may well be activating the "propeller anti ice". Since "Engine anti ice" is not fitted to the B17. That's one for the MCE support, I bet they could model that for us!


Now the gauge utility from Avsim? Has anyone tried it? Does it work with our A2A b17 or is it for FS9 simple native aircraft? Is it just a visual effect or is the Accusim model initiating a simulated ice build up by a loss of performance and lift?

I use REX HD+ for weather and get very good ice formation in the PMDG J41 and the F1 Mustang (both model ice). I have not had time to test it in the Fort.

I will do a test flight tomorrow and try to summon up some ice. (The weather in the Cairngorms for tomorrow is for snow, and its only October!)

Best Regards,

David.



EDIT. Bill, I have downloaded the ICE gauge, as per your link, installed it as per the readme, but have no gauge present in the cockpit. Is not the gauge meant for FS9 Cessna ? (Microsoft basic) Since that has 2d panels. We don't have 2d panels in the A2A B17? So where would the Ice indicator panel appear?


Also I just flew over the Cairngorms, Scotland. It was snowing at around 0 degrees and no ice formed on any surfaces. Warmed up on descent from 10,000, through to 5C. It should have iced up somewhere. Has this been seen by you with our FSX A2A B17?

By the way the crew commented on the foul weather outside, think they said "Captain its really puttin' it down out there"......

Hi David,

You will not see an actual gauge in the panel until ice is detected. Then you will see a square with "WING ICE" in blue, yellow, or red. If it is installed correctly, it will work in the FSX A2A B17 and other FSX aircraft. I have seen icing many times. I have had it go into the yellow, and if I didn't get out of the layer, it would have gone into the red, and I would have lost my aircraft.

I have a physical cockpit, so I don't use the VC. I have it installed in my 2D gauge panel.

When you installed it, it may have gone into one of the cfgs for the multiple B17 windows, and unless you had that window open at the time you wouldn't see it. You should have felt the effects though if the conditions for icing were right. The A/C gets slower, and sluggish.

It may be possible to install it in the VC. I have Flight Sim Panel Studio, and if I get some time, I will try and see if it can be done.

Bill

Hello Bill.

Yes I think I installed it ok.

So the Ice Gauge will just appear, presumably in the open forward view? Or one of the Pop up panels?

I installed a similar add on for a door opener, a couple of years ago, in the IFly. But it only appeared in the 2d view. The dev. did not know how to mod it in 3d.

I was just intrigued as to if the icing effect is modelled in the Accusim module for the B17 aircraft? Or, does the add on gauge provide the icing effects? I refer to the physical effects ( stall speed up etc.) and not just the appearance of ice on the wings. If its intrinsic in the Accusim B17, then the first signs should be sluggish handling, even without the add on gauge.

The J41 has good visual icing as does the F1 Duke and their Cessna Mustang, but I think its just visual and no physics is involved. But since you have to encounter icing with a decent weather engine, its hard to know for sure!

Best Regards

David

[Jacques]

Avio, I noticed that tonight, about the increase in amps. But wouldn't that also be the case if the fluid is dispersed to the propellers by means of an electric pump? I believe there was a central reservoir, the fluid being delivered to each propeller by an electric pump. I admit I have no idea how A2A modeled this. As long as it works!

David, the report would indicate that the icing effect is very tame in fsx. Installing the gauge allows for a much more realistic modeling of structural icing, eventually resulting in a possibly un recoverable stall and/or dive. This is not created by A2A but is done in conjunction with whatever aircraft model you have installed. At least that is what the report indicates. I don't know ( perhaps Lewis or someone from A2A can confirm) if A2A has modeled any advanced icing consequences in their aircraft. My experience so far would suggest that they have not, in favor of more realistic behaviors elsewhere in the flight model I don't think the ice is visually modeled by installing this gauge (although that would be very cool!) thus the need for the gauge, which Bill noted, will indicate "wing icing" in three different shades depending upon the severity. He has also modeled a more severe form of icing, more. Wicked in its nature and consequences than regular icing. It really is worth it to read through the "the ice gauge" portion of the report Bill copied in his post above...it is the last part of the report and describes the way it works. Once I get some thing sorted in my computer, I think I'll give it a go!

JP


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free

[Avio]

Hi JP,

Yep I'm aware of the amp needed if it was a fluid pump to the prop. But there didn't appear to be any reference to such a reservoir or pump by A2A, thus not sure if that was even modelled.

And hello Bill, I tried out the Ice Gauge and it works PERFECTLY for me ! At least I could see it where I want to see it (and can hide it if I want to), and it certainly lit up to blue color when I flew high and cold enough ! Didn't get to see it turns to yellow (or red), though. Maybe the condition just was "icy" enough that flight.

And when I flipped on the wing deice, the blue light actually went out, but comes back on again if the wing deice is off.

Absolutely fabulous. Thanks Bill.

Avio

[boris4356]

A very interesting thread. In fact all you guys on the forum are very knowledgeable. Its refreshing to be amongst pilots!

I hope I can add my two penneth here.

The original question about ILS frequencies. If I may suggest something I use all the time in every simulation and not just the specially scripted sims like NGX.

Its MCE or Multi Crew Experience.

MCE in use on the B17 controls many functions. For example, if you say "Set 111.15 on Nav one" , the co pilot will set it for you. The same applies with ADF, Squawk or ATC frequency, Com1, in fact, every item on the radios can be set by your MCE co-pilot. Confirm by Shift+6. This is very useful, as any real world Captain will attest.

Co-pilot can also raise the gear and flaps. Other controls have to be scripted. Either by you or the MCE guys can help. The support is excellent.

Now the subject of ice.

The wing anti ice boot pressure shows 8 psi on idle, on the ground, if its activated.

Again activate this with MCE by saying "Wing Anti Ice on/Off". Although not realistic in the ship, since the switch is on your (left hand seat) side and I cant see the co-pilot reaching over you to action the switch. But its nice to know this works also. MCE co-pilot will reply "Anti Ice on/off" and throw the switch!


The propeller de ice may not yet be modelled with MCE. If you say " Anti ice on", the co-pilot replies "engine anti ice one, two, three, four, switched on". I am unsure as to what he is switching on. If its in the cfg and air files then he may well be activating the "propeller anti ice". Since "Engine anti ice" is not fitted to the B17. That's one for the MCE support, I bet they could model that for us!


Now the gauge utility from Avsim? Has anyone tried it? Does it work with our A2A b17 or is it for FS9 simple native aircraft? Is it just a visual effect or is the Accusim model initiating a simulated ice build up by a loss of performance and lift?

I use REX HD+ for weather and get very good ice formation in the PMDG J41 and the F1 Mustang (both model ice). I have not had time to test it in the Fort.

I will do a test flight tomorrow and try to summon up some ice. (The weather in the Cairngorms for tomorrow is for snow, and its only October!)

Best Regards,

David.



EDIT. Bill, I have downloaded the ICE gauge, as per your link, installed it as per the readme, but have no gauge present in the cockpit. Is not the gauge meant for FS9 Cessna ? (Microsoft basic) Since that has 2d panels. We don't have 2d panels in the A2A B17? So where would the Ice indicator panel appear?


Also I just flew over the Cairngorms, Scotland. It was snowing at around 0 degrees and no ice formed on any surfaces. Warmed up on descent from 10,000, through to 5C. It should have iced up somewhere. Has this been seen by you with our FSX A2A B17?

By the way the crew commented on the foul weather outside, think they said "Captain its really puttin' it down out there"......

Hi David,

You will not see an actual gauge in the panel until ice is detected. Then you will see a square with "WING ICE" in blue, yellow, or red. If it is installed correctly, it will work in the FSX A2A B17 and other FSX aircraft. I have seen icing many times. I have had it go into the yellow, and if I didn't get out of the layer, it would have gone into the red, and I would have lost my aircraft.

I have a physical cockpit, so I don't use the VC. I have it installed in my 2D gauge panel.

When you installed it, it may have gone into one of the cfgs for the multiple B17 windows, and unless you had that window open at the time you wouldn't see it. You should have felt the effects though if the conditions for icing were right. The A/C gets slower, and sluggish.

It may be possible to install it in the VC. I have Flight Sim Panel Studio, and if I get some time, I will try and see if it can be done.

Bill

Hello Bill.

Yes I think I installed it ok.

So the Ice Gauge will just appear, presumably in the open forward view? Or one of the Pop up panels?

I installed a similar add on for a door opener, a couple of years ago, in the IFly. But it only appeared in the 2d view. The dev. did not know how to mod it in 3d.

I was just intrigued as to if the icing effect is modelled in the Accusim module for the B17 aircraft? Or, does the add on gauge provide the icing effects? I refer to the physical effects ( stall speed up etc.) and not just the appearance of ice on the wings. If its intrinsic in the Accusim B17, then the first signs should be sluggish handling, even without the add on gauge.

The J41 has good visual icing as does the F1 Duke and their Cessna Mustang, but I think its just visual and no physics is involved. But since you have to encounter icing with a decent weather engine, its hard to know for sure!

Best Regards

David

Hi David,

JP in his answer to your post really explained it well.

The capability for icing is built into the A2A B-17, and just needs to be fed the data from a source. The ice gauge amplifies the weak icing effects in fsx, and makes it more realistic. The better your weather engine, the better the data. Icing is not visually modelled, but it will definitely be felt on your performance of the a/c.

Bill

[boris4356]

Hi JP,

Yep I'm aware of the amp needed if it was a fluid pump to the prop. But there didn't appear to be any reference to such a reservoir or pump by A2A, thus not sure if that was even modelled.

And hello Bill, I tried out the Ice Gauge and it works PERFECTLY for me ! At least I could see it where I want to see it (and can hide it if I want to), and it certainly lit up to blue color when I flew high and cold enough ! Didn't get to see it turns to yellow (or red), though. Maybe the condition just was "icy" enough that flight.

And when I flipped on the wing deice, the blue light actually went out, but comes back on again if the wing deice is off.

Absolutely fabulous. Thanks Bill.

Avio

Your welcome Avio!

Be careful if the blue light comes back on when you have the wing de-ice on. That means that icing is occuring at a rate that the de-icers can't handle, and you are in a dangerous situation. That has happened to me a few times. The best thing is to get out of the layer. If you don't, you will turn yellow, and then red, and then theoretically drop out of the sky!

I will try and see what happens the next time I encounter severe icing by staying in the layer, and not turning on the deicers. I will make sure I have my latest .dat file saved though in case I do fall out of the sky!

Bill

[boris4356]

Hi Guys!

I tried to install the ice gauge into the VC panel, but I couldn't.

I did make a separate window for anyone who wants to have the gauge open all the time. This is the optimum solution, as you will be able to see the icing occurring when it is happening. You should place it where you will see it in your peripheral vision.

Install the icev10.zip file as per the instructions. Instead of using the "gauge45=ICE!IceWarning,250,20,40,20" as shown in the readme, Just add "Window14=Ice Gauge" to the "[Window Titles]" section of the panel.cfg file in the panel folder.

Then after [Window13] add:

[Window14]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=55,15
window_size_ratio=1.000
position=0
visible=1
ident=180
window_size= 0.500, 0.500
window_pos= 0.040, 0.080
zorder=0

gauge00=ICE!IceWarning, 0,0,53,14



Here is what the cfg should look like with the Ice Gauge addition.

[Window Titles]
Window00=Main Panel
Window01=Clipboard
Window02=Mini Controls
Window03=Payload and Fuel Manager
Window04=Map
Window05=Radios
Window06=Maintenance Hangar
Window07=Engine Selector
Window08=Autopilot
Window09=none2
Window10=dbg
Window11=none3
Window12=none4
Window13=fs autopilot
Window14=Ice Gauge

[VIEWS]
VIEW_FORWARD_WINDOWS=10,20,RADIO_STACK_PANEL,FUEL_PANEL,50,51,52,53,54,100,10

1,102,103,104

VIEW_FORWARD_ZOOM=0.500

VIEW_FORWARD_RIGHT_ZOOM=0.500

VIEW_RIGHT_ZOOM=0.500

VIEW_REAR_RIGHT_ZOOM=0.500

VIEW_REAR_ZOOM=0.500

VIEW_REAR_LEFT_ZOOM=0.500

VIEW_LEFT_ZOOM=0.500

VIEW_FORWARD_LEFT_ZOOM=0.500

VIEW_UP_ZOOM=0.500



[Window00]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=1024,768
position=1
visible=1
ident=10

gauge00=tester!tester, 420, 50, 400, 1000

[Window01]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=322,615
pixel_size=322,615
window_pos= 0.51, 0.2
position=0
visible=0
ident=20
sizable=0

gauge00=WoP3_b17!clipboard, 1,0,322,615

[Window02]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=321,431
pixel_size=321,431
window_pos= 0.0, 0.2
position=0
visible=0
ident=RADIO_STACK_PANEL
sizable=0
gauge00=WoP3_b17!controls, 1,0,321,431

[Window03]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=1024,768
pixel_size=1024,768
window_pos= 0.0, 0.2
position=0
visible=0
ident=FUEL_PANEL
sizable=0

gauge00=WoP3_b17!manager, 1,1,1022,766

[Window04]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=1024,768
pixel_size=1024,768
window_pos= 0.000, 0.2
position=0
visible=1
ident=50
sizable=0

gauge00=WoP3_b17!mapscreen, 255,1,770,766
gauge01=WoP3_b17!map_settings, 1,50,246,232

[Window05]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=187,262
pixel_size=187,262
position=6
window_pos= 0.025, 0.9
visible=1
ident=51
sizable=0

gauge00=WoP3_b17!radios, 1,0,185,261

[Window06]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=1024,820
pixel_size=1024,820
window_pos= 0.000, 0.1
position=0
visible=0
ident=52
sizable=0

gauge00=WoP3_b17!engine, 1,50,1024,768


[Window07]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=230,100
position=7
visible=0
ident=53
sizable=0
zorder=2

gauge00=WoP3_b17!selector, 0,0,250,100


[Window08]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=442,570
pixel_size=442,570
position=5
visible=0
ident=54
sizable=0

gauge00=WoP3_b17!c1, 0,0,442,570

[Window09]
Background_color=0,0,0
ident=100
nomenu=1

gauge00=WoP3_b17!keys, 1,1,1,1

[Window10]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=330,450
pixel_size=330,450
position=5
visible=0
nomenu=1
ident=101
sizable=0

gauge00=dbg!panel, 144,0

[Window11]
Background_color=1,1,1
ident=102
window_size=1.000,1.000
nomenu=1
zorder=100

gauge00=Wop3_B17!blackout, 0,0

[Window12]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=685,685
pixel_size=685,685
position=3
visible=0
ident=103
nomenu=1
zorder=99

gauge00=Wop3_B17!engine_details, 1,1,685,685


[Window13]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=252,74
position=8
visible=0
ident=104
nomenu=1

gauge00=Bendix_King_Radio!Bendix-King Radio AP, 1,1,250, 74


[Window14]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=55,15
window_size_ratio=1.000
position=0
visible=1
ident=180
window_size= 0.500, 0.500
window_pos= 0.040, 0.080
zorder=0

gauge00=ICE!IceWarning, 0,0,53,14

//--------------------------------------------------------

[Vcockpit00]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=256,256
visible=1
pixel_size=256,256
texture=$gauges_1

gauge00=WoP3_b17!code_r, 1,1,1,1
gauge01=WoP3_b17!code_s, 2,2,2,2
gauge02=WoP3_b17_a!damage, 3,3,3,3
gauge03=WoP3_B17s!l2a, 4,4,4,4
gauge04=WoP3_B17s!storage, 5,5,5,5
gauge05=WoP3_B17s!events, 6,6,6,6
gauge06=WoP3_B17s!random, 7,7,7,7
gauge07=A2A_B17Sound!sound, 8,8,8,8
gauge08=WoP3_b17_a!status1, 9,9,9,9
gauge09=WoP3_b17_a!status2, 10,10,10,10
gauge10=WoP3_b17_a!status3, 11,11,11,11
gauge11=WoP3_b17_a!status4, 12,12,12,12
gauge12=WoP3_b17_a!status5, 13,13,13,13
gauge13=WoP3_b17_a!status6, 14,14,14,14
gauge14=WoP3_b17_a!status7, 15,15,15,15
gauge15=WoP3_b17_a!status8, 16,16,16,16
gauge16=WoP3_b17_a!status9, 17,17,17,17
gauge17=WoP3_b17_a!status10, 18,18,18,18
gauge18=WoP3_b17_a!status11, 19,19,19,19
gauge19=WoP3_b17_a!status12, 20,20,20,20
gauge20=WoP3_b17_a!status13, 21,21,21,21
gauge21=WoP3_b17_a!status14, 22,22,22,22
gauge22=WoP3_b17_a!status15, 23,23,23,23
gauge23=WoP3_b17_a!status16, 24,24,24,24

[Color]
Day=255,255,255
Night=117,117,180
Luminous=200,200,101


[Default View]
X=0
Y=0
SIZE_X=8191
SIZE_Y=6143

To open the gauge in the sim, go to views in the FSX menu bar, and select instrument panel. It should show as Ice Gauge. Click on it and place it where you want. I haven't tested it yet, but it should work.

Bill

[Avio]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for working out another alternative way of displaying the gauge. Right now I'm quite happy with just toggling on and off the gauge with just a hotkey.

I've read through the documentation and while it was definitely definitive and helpful, I was trying to figure out which part mentions about the utility actually enhancing upon the icing characteristics. Maybe I've missed it, but I got the impression that it was more about showing up the icing level as detected in game. One enhancement quite clearly mentioned though was the simulation of accelerating icing effect of freezing rain, which I believe the original FSX modelling didn't do.

As said, I may have missed out on some of the interpretations. But it is certainly one real helpful little utility. Glad I found this, and will use in all other planes I fly (which happen to be mostly A2A stuff !).

Avio

[DavidHerky]

Hi Bill,

I've read through the documentation and while it was definitely definitive and helpful, I was trying to figure out which part mentions about the utility actually enhancing upon the icing characteristics. Maybe I've missed it, but I got the impression that it was more about showing up the icing level as detected in game. One enhancement quite clearly mentioned though was the simulation of accelerating icing effect of freezing rain, which I believe the original FSX modelling didn't do.

Avio

Avio,

You are thinking exactly what I was wondering?

Given that FSX icing is a rather weak simulated affect, does this little ICE gauge enhance it?

Its very difficult to test this, as stated, with out a good weather effects model. Even then the conditions need to be severe enough!

I have installed and tested it in the Fort.

With REX HD as live weather engine, I flew over Cairngorms, Scotland with nasty freezing rain, (Even the crew said it was puttin' it down!) Temp+1. I got the green "Wing Ice" warning light. I selected Wing Anti Ice and the light was intermittent. What you may expect if its keeping the wings free, then clearing a build up.

I had no adverse handling, but with only a slight build up (Green lamp) that's predictable.

Are the de ice boots being "modulated" by a valve or when you put them on are they on all the time? If the latter is the case, then the Captain would have to periodically, switch them on and off, to free the ice. We know from historical research that the crews had the de ice boots removed after they kept getting holes shot into them. So these guys must have found the B17 capable of toughing it out through any ice. I surmise that's why A2A decided the accusim B17 model did not warrant any extra ice modelling?



Bill, nice work on the extra window. Here is what I did and the ICE indicator sits just dandy atop the Radio Window! Its such a nice fit it looks like it was modelled for it. Here is my addition.

[Window05]
Background_color=0,0,0
size_mm=187,262
pixel_size=187,262
position=6
window_pos= 0.025, 0.9
visible=1
ident=51
sizable=0

gauge00=WoP3_b17!radios, 1,0,185,261
gauge01=ICE!IceWarning, 1,1,40,20

I use two monitors so I undock the Radios and put them on my second screen.

Really interesting discussion here guys. We are going for "absolute realism" here after all!

As for the prop de ice, its going to be a question for the A2A devs or an engineer who worked on the Hamilton Standard 3 Bladed props. There is no reference to the prop de ice in the manuals supplied by A2A (shoot me down here if I am incorrect). Its my guess its fluid from a reservoir, released by a valve. Centrifugal force dispersing the fluid out over the props.

Unfortunately had my father still been with us, he'd have known. He was a LAME (Leading Air Mechanic Engines) during WW2.

Best Regards
David

EDIT.
A buddy who is a developer, peeked at the Xml for me. It measures temperature and precipitation type then, if conditions are right, adds weight to the airframe, thus giving us the illusion of ice on the flying surfaces. Does not affect props. It then displays its ice indicator.Obviously it has no way to graphically simulate ice on the wings. That would be a Accusim patch! Just thought I'd add this, most know already

[zachenbacher]

Tested the ice gauge within the 172 but seems not to simulate icing in a proper way. Please see here and comment: http://a2asimulations.com/forum/viewtop ... 60#p305260

Denis

[DC3]

Can any one recommend where I can get a copy of AFSD?

Thanks in advance

[Louis8m]

I put the ice gauge in like Avio said where it sits at the top of the screen on the upper left under the tool bar. There's all kinds of alternatives on this post but looks like they mean they did it for the B17-- I'm not sure, is one of them made to put in the panel of our 180 is what I'm trying to figure out. I'd like to stick it just above the clock but I have no idea how to play with the settings .

[dacamp66]

carb heat is controlled by using the intercooler (the intercooler is basically a heat exchanger that cools the incoming carb air after it has been compressed (and thus heated)) so if you have carb icing, just cut back on the intercooler until your CAT is at an acceptable temp.
IIRC, the glycol/heating fluid is only used in the cabin heater, and I think the only way to defrost the windshield is to crank up the cabin heater, so when you run out of fluid, you're going to get ice on the windshield and also freeze your keister off.

[Masterius]

Not sure if anyone follows this, but . . .

I've installed this exactly as instructed, and the little rectangle "no ice" blank window appears. However . . .

When I intentionally place my aircraft in definite icing conditions --light rain, temperatures 0C and below-- that changes to a blue font "Wing Ice" . . . for a few seconds before entirely vanishing and never reappearing again. Try as I might, it won't reappear again. or it simply won't accumulate ice at all.

Any tips or suggestions?