Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

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Styggron
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Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Styggron »

Hello everyone,

Ummm I found all documentation in the manuals regarding the navigator's station to not really have enough detail.

Depending what version of the manual you have, there are two in the B377/COTS install. There is a stratocruiser manual where the Navigator's panel info starts on page 55 and another manual it starts later. Both these manuals are with the installation files.

Anyway my questions

1. page 57 shows the navigation radios. What does "loop" and "ant" mean ? Sure ant might mean antenna but what does that do, what is loop ? How do you use it ? when would you use it etc ?It does not appear to be in the manual :(


2. Page 58. How do you use the radar alt ? What does it do ?

The manual seems fantastic for all other aspect bar the navigator's station for some reason.

If someone could please explain these that would be great.

I also checked both Stratocruiser Pilot manuals AND accu-sim manuals. Even the accusim manual tells you to refer to the Stratocruisers manual.

Thanks everyone.
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AKar
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by AKar »

I don't have the Stratocruiser, but can answer the ADF question for that's more general knowledge.

You'd want to have it in ADF mode to navigate. The ANT selection disables loop antenna circuits, leaving only the sense antenna to be active. The sense antenna picks less noise, giving better signal-to-noise ratio. This is why this mode is useful for listening the audio identifier, especially if attempting to identify a very distant station. Units that are common today actually disable the loop circuits automatically if tuned to a weak signal, but the mode is still included to allow for clearer audio if required. I'd guess if you've got AM stations around transmitting some airy music it might still get used.

The unit cannot find the direction to the station with sense antenna alone, so you can't use the mode for navigation. Therefore, the needle is typically parked to some predetermined position. I don't know whether the mode is actually simulated.

I actually don't know what the loop mode does, none of the units that I know by operation don't have this mode. But my logical guess would be that it allows one to select the loop antenna alone. This would only make sense if the loop antenna could be manually "slewed": this way you could find the direction to the station by rotating the antenna to the greatest reception, though the ambiguity of two possible directions would remain.

Edit: and about that radar altimeter...I don't know its operation in the B377, but I'd figure it is rather usual, not requiring much pilot effort. It is used to measure your height above the terrain underneath you. That contrasts to your regular, barometric altimeter which measures approximately your altitude from the altitude corresponding to the pressure setting you adjusted it to. (Sounds difficult, but that's what it does! :mrgreen:)

-Esa

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Jacques
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Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Jacques »

Here is a discussion tthat took place earlier this year concerning the ADF, the loop and antenna modes:

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=ht ... are_type=t

I've never really tried messing with the radar altimeter at the navigators station, but the two radio altimeters on the pilot' and co-pilot's panel can be useful for monitoring your true height above an object or surface (within a range of 100 to 4,000 ft).

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Nick - A2A
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Nick - A2A »

Ernie Gann describes the function of the loop mode in my favourite aviation book, Fate is the Hunter. It's one which I quote from whenever given half a chance, such as now... :)
Ernest K. Gann wrote:The direction finder is a completely separate radio installation and is controlled by a tuning dial and a small crank for turning the receiving loop. By cranking the loop a bearing may be taken on any convenient station and thus a navigational line of position established. Because of its construction the loop can often bring in signals when the regular antenna fails its purpose.
Gann goes on to describe "crank[ing] the loop back and forth, a few degrees at a time" when trying to pick up the range signal from an elusive beacon whilst in this scary predicament.

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AKar
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by AKar »

Thanks again Nick - I'm not yet that far on the book! :) The loop mode appears to work as I suspected. There is really quite a bit of sense in it when used with manually slewed antenna.

There is a bit of misconception in Gann's words though, the ADF inherently uses the loop antenna to find the direction to the station, there is no "regular antenna" as such. The sense antenna (the other aerial component of the ADF) is omnidirectional, therefore it has no direction finding capability whatsoever - it all comes from the loop. The signal received by the sense antenna is instead used as a reference signal to count out the ambiguity of two possible solutions when comparing the amplitudes that come from the reception of the directionally selective loop, when it is rotated around. By the time, folks didn't have the capability to detect the phase directly. Therefore, they used the sense antenna reception, which is omnidirectional, and therefore only dependent of the strength of the vertical field component [due to polarization], to add on the loop antenna reception which in turn is directional. Without the sense antenna, the loop's reception would peak in amplitude (which was what they could detect) twice over its full rotation: once when it is faced towards the station....or to be accurate, when the loop's plane is exactly perpendicular to the direction to the station...(actually it is the sharp zero signal occurring at the facing loop position that is used in regular direction finding to be technically correct), and again when it is reversed. But when it is reversed, the induction would be reversed too, even if the amplitude remained the same. But if we now summed up the sense antenna's signal, that we define to be in-phase with the correct signal, they would cancel out when we are 180° off-phase with the loop, solving the ambiguity of two solutions.

Selection of the loop antenna alone would not, by any argument, maximize the sensitivity. It will, however, maximize the directional selectivity, by disabling the omnidirectional reception. It won't identify the station any quicker (the ANT mode is for that), but it will enable one to use maximally directional signal when manually slewing the antenna. In electronically slewed antennae of today, there would be no benefit from this mode, for the orthogonal field components, in relation to the airplane's nose, are compared regardless by electronics all the time.

[Edit: It may have been that they didn't have any sense antennae at all by the time, therefore using only rotating loops?]

-Esa

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Styggron
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Styggron »

Thanks everyone.I read that other thread, it does not shed too much light on things really sadly.

From what I gather
  • no one knows if loop/ant is modelled or if it does anything in the simulation bar letting you move the switch. Should it be put in a particular position to work if modelled ? Nothing in the manual :( The other thread one person says it serves no useful purpose and another one said it may be useful if navigating with NDB's.
  • The radar altimeter gives you distance above the ground
Looks like we don't know if ant/loop does anything still. I've tried it in the plane, it does not seem to but I'm new on this plane so I am hardly the person that can call it.

Cheers for letting me know what the radar altimeter does but how do we use it ? Where do you tune it into ?

I am still so surprised neither manual really helps out here.
Maybe someone else might know if loop/ant is modelled and instructions on how to use the three buttons on the radar altiimeter panel in the navigator's console.

Thanks again everyone, hopefully we can get this working and I'll write up the extra instructions in my manual.
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Nick - A2A
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Nick - A2A »

Can't really help with the Accu-Sim B377 nav functionality I'm afraid Styggron as it's been a few years now since I've had a flight in the thing. I really am quite tempted to reinstall it though!

And, er, cheers Esa - I read your last post through once, then decided a large stiff drink was in order before I even tried to get my head round it. :shock: Telecommunications engineers can have a very damaging effect on a chap's liquor supply you know! :mrgreen:

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AKar
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by AKar »

:mrgreen: The biggest reason - or so I argue - for mostly incomprehensible explanation is that everything there is seemingly dependent on something phase-leading or phase-lagging in where the phase in other ways has no meaning...or is not even detectable. Every time there comes up this "BTW" how it is "actually" done. :D It makes a whole new perspective on the concept of frequency, when there are bands of some!

No, the ADF is actually fairly straightforward as an idea, it would just benefit some illustrations.

-Esa

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Styggron
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Styggron »

AKar wrote::mrgreen: The biggest reason - or so I argue - for mostly incomprehensible explanation is that everything there is seemingly dependent on something phase-leading or phase-lagging in where the phase in other ways has no meaning...or is not even detectable. Every time there comes up this "BTW" how it is "actually" done. :D It makes a whole new perspective on the concept of frequency, when there are bands of some!

No, the ADF is actually fairly straightforward as an idea, it would just benefit some illustrations.

-Esa
and the manual REALLY needs to explain what the switches do and also how the Radar altimeter works as I am still flumoxed. :?
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Welsch
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Welsch »

Radar altimeter is simple - switch it on and it gives you your height above ground. Depending on their setting, the units on pilot and co-pilot dashboard give readings of up to either 400ft or 4000ft.
The unit at the navigators station can measure up to even greater height it seems.

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Styggron
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Styggron »

Welsch wrote:Radar altimeter is simple - switch it on and it gives you your height above ground. Depending on their setting, the units on pilot and co-pilot dashboard give readings of up to either 400ft or 4000ft.
The unit at the navigators station can measure up to even greater height it seems.
Hello Welsch,
Ok but forgive me for asking, if you just turn it on why the three controls and the dig dial on the navigator's panel. As they work they must be there for a reason. Sure one is to turn it off but the others ?
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Welsch
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Welsch »

The only one in the NAV position that seems to have any effect for me besides on/off is the range selector (upper left, if I remember correctly - not in front of the sim right now). So, that seems to be it... the other dials are most likely stuff that has some function in the real world, but did not get the accusim treatment. It's there in case you are into role play ;)
Anyway, the NAV rad alt is relatively useless anyway, you want to focus on the ones in the pilot dashboard - for obvious reasons.

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Jacques
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Jacques »

Welsch is right, only the on-off switch and the scale switch work. Sorry, I got distracted thinking of a shared cockpit with pilot, engineer and navigator....yikes! :D

Anyway, the "Times One" scale is from 0-5000'.
Each small tick on the dial is 50'
Each intermediate tick is 100'
Each numbered tick is 1000' You have numbers 1 through five so five thousand feet is the max at that scale.

Flip it to the "Times Ten" scale and it indicates from 0-50,000'
Each small tick is 500'
Each intermediate tick is 1000'
Each numbered tick is 10,000'

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Styggron
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Styggron »

You can't get the auto pilot to follow the heading bug can you or the DUAL RMI needle is it ?
Accufeel V2, C172 , B377+L049+COTS, B17G, Piper Cub,Commanche,Cherrokee,Spitfire,Bonanza, P47,P40,both Mustangs
Aircraft Factory Avro Anson, Albatros DIII,Heinkel He-219, F4U Corsair, P51H Mustang, Avro 504, BF109
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Jacques
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Re: Parts the manual does not explain - navigator's station

Post by Jacques »

The autopilot is very basic. It will maintain the altitude you select ( flip the "altitude hold" switch within as you approach that altitude) and make shallow, coordinated turns (turn off rudder boost when on autopilot) but it will not sync with any navigation device. So, you're still very much involved in making sure the aircraft goes where you wish. The navigation indicators you mnetioned are just your checks that progress is going according to plan.

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