377 Captains Log - flight time error?

BIG, double-deck, four-engine, medium to long range, high altitude, high speed, commercial transport airplane
TreeTops
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1086
Joined: 07 Apr 2010, 06:13

377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by TreeTops »

Reference post link
Subject: The 54 minute hour

Hi Hook and others who are interested,
I know this is an old post but I never really looked into it before.

Some quick information.
I have just done a run across the Sahara from Dakar to Dongola on the Nile and I was doing some reconciling between the results of the flight and the PFPX data I have worked up this year.
Note, I use FSGlobalRealWeather for my remote flights as it seems Rex and Activesky lack a bit in these remote areas.

My PFPX plan gives me a calculated flight time of 9:13 hrs, I actually flew 9:35 hrs including a couple of missed approaches due to tiredness and being plenty rusty which corrected equated to about 9:20 hrs. (7 mins more than calculated).
My PFPX plan calculated trip fuel of 39360 lbs and I used 39030, including the 15 mins of go arounds fuel approx. 400 lbs est. so use corrected fuel of 38730 (-630 lbs approx. less than calculated or -1.6%).

Now the interesting part.
The captains log, which I guess is airborne hours, shows a flight time of 8:42 hrs.
Compare this to my flight time of 9:20 hrs (corrected) gives approx. 38 mins short on the Log.
Almost 10 hrs at 4 mins per hour = almost 40 mins

Would this equate to the 56 minutes in the hour issue? I cant find anything on the forum regarding a fix from A2A regarding this.
I would be interested in your thoughts.

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Cheers
Trev

Hook
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1358
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 01:38
Location: Bonham, Texas

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by Hook »

TreeTops wrote: 15 Apr 2020, 00:51Now the interesting part.
The captains log, which I guess is airborne hours, shows a flight time of 8:42 hrs.
Compare this to my flight time of 9:20 hrs (corrected) gives approx. 38 mins short on the Log.
Almost 10 hrs at 4 mins per hour = almost 40 mins

Would this equate to the 56 minutes in the hour issue? I cant find anything on the forum regarding a fix from A2A regarding this.
I would be interested in your thoughts.
This is EXACTLY the 56 minute hour problem. 9:20 is 9.333 which times 4 is 37.333 minutes.

The Connie has the same problem.

In the end it doesn't really matter except if you're trying to keep your on-board clock synched with the real world. You can account for the time difference mathematically for flight planning if you're worried about it, but I've been ignoring it.

Thanks for noticing my post about it. :D

Hook

TreeTops
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1086
Joined: 07 Apr 2010, 06:13

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by TreeTops »

Thanks for confirming my suspicions. At least I now know what is correct and what contains the error.
The other thing that is a mystery is the aircraft clock when it goes across time zones. In the case of my flight it crossed 2 zones and added an hour onto the clock at each zone crossing.
I had the impression that the clock maintained time based on the departure airport.

I am also super impressed with how my PFPX data is working out. This flight used re-dispatch planning, which was the first time I had figured out what it means.
Almost 10 hrs flight with 7 minutes over, and 1.6% fuel under.
Now i need to subject the data to different flight situations and see how it holds up.

Its all very interesting.
Cheers
Trev

Hook
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1358
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 01:38
Location: Bonham, Texas

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by Hook »

It's been forever since I flew the 377, but the Connie is similar enough in the COTS functions.

If I remember correctly, the meal times follow the time zone of your departure airport. Somewhere there should be a clock with the "aircraft time" that's not affected by time zones. What about the pocketwatch at the navigator's station?

The time discrepancy is one reason I like to keep my on-board clock synchronized with a real world clock, even if I'm not flying the sim with the same time as the clock on my wall. For example, I may offset the sim clock by 12 hours. In smaller aircraft it may be a 6 hour offset. Sometimes the time zone changes can get really weird as well, but all my record keeping is based on my real world clock.

Please, if you come up with ANY additional information, please share it.

Hook

TreeTops
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1086
Joined: 07 Apr 2010, 06:13

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by TreeTops »

I just performed a 2 hr ground test with 377 clock against real time clock and the navigator's watch, pilot, copilot and engineers' clocks all kept time correctly.
This would mean that it is the time calculated on the Captains Log which is skipping 4 minutes every hour.
Cheers
Trev

alan CXA651
Senior Master Sergeant
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Joined: 15 Mar 2016, 08:23

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by alan CXA651 »

Hi.
Now you know the aircraft clocks keep correct time in a static park , try checking them on a flight , and compare with pilots log , if all clocks tally , check against pilots log , and also check the sims flight log , it could be either a sim clock error or the time zones around the world , which is what i suspect is the cause of the issue.
regards alan. 8)
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Hook
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1358
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 01:38
Location: Bonham, Texas

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by Hook »

Alan, I researched the hell out of this, and even posted a fix for the displayed time (which didn't change the internal captain's log time). There is a problem in the way the captain's log time is calculated, A2A promised to look into it, but the problem was never fixed in the 377 and continues in the Connie.

TreeTops: Interesting that the other clocks keep accurate time. Keep an eye on that and I will as well if/when I ever get back into the Connie. Thanks.

Hook

TreeTops
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1086
Joined: 07 Apr 2010, 06:13

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by TreeTops »

Flying from HSDN Dongola across the Red Sea to OOMS Muscat to complete my trans Africa trip, I have been watching the times on the clocks. Crossing a time zone the pilot, co-pilot and engineer's clocks all jumped forward 1 hr, whereas the navigator's watch remained on departure time zone.
Clocks complete the full 60 minutes when timed against the independent time source of my phone.
Cheers
Trev

Hook
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1358
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 01:38
Location: Bonham, Texas

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by Hook »

Good to know, thanks. I figured the Navigator's watch remained on departure time.

Also good to have verification that the clocks keep correct time even if the log is off a bit.

Hook

alan CXA651
Senior Master Sergeant
Posts: 2438
Joined: 15 Mar 2016, 08:23

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by alan CXA651 »

Hi Treetops.
What was your flight time according to your SIM flight log and the A2A pilots log , and if you noticed , the flight time according to navigators watch , times are usually choc to choc .
regards alan. 8)
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TreeTops
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1086
Joined: 07 Apr 2010, 06:13

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by TreeTops »

Time according to sim log was 9:51 hrs, including pausing for break times. The sim log counts for the entire session, not the engine hours or flight time.
My engine hours for this second flight was 5:44 hrs and flight time was about 16 minutes less or about 5:28 hrs.
Captains log was 5:09 hrs.
5 hrs X 4 minute skip per hour = 20 minutes.
All 4 time pieces in the cockpit keep proper time and the navigator's watch keeps departure time zone. The other 3 change according to time zone changes.
The Navigator's Notes also keeps proper time.

Actual flight time - 5:28 hrs
Captains Log flight time - 5:09 hrs
Captains Log is 19 minutes short which is still consistent with Hook's findings of 56 minutes for the hour.
Cheers
Trev

Hook
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1358
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 01:38
Location: Bonham, Texas

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by Hook »

Trev,

I can't load the 377 up to check as I don't have FSX, I can only check the code. I do know that the Navigator's Notes displays the "official" time in flight. Nice if it keeps correct system time and it appears from the code that it might.

Do NOT use any changes in the first post that you linked above. The changes in a subsequent post were the ones that worked the best for me. For what it's worth, I made those same changes in the Connie, then reverted back to original code.

It's probably best to totally ignore anything having to do with flight time in the panels and assume it's just the airline's accounting process for calculating pilot pay rather than anything having to do with the real world. I don't remember for sure all these years later but I suspect the flight time calculations don't affect fuel usage, so you can do flight planning as any other aircraft. The airline bean counters' fantasy log only affects logged pilot hours.

Alan,

If you check out the link in the original post, you will find the following:
The default flight time display starts counting when you advance the throttle for takeoff.
The flight time is what is added to the captain's log.

Hook

TreeTops
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1086
Joined: 07 Apr 2010, 06:13

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by TreeTops »

Hook,
I haven't made any changes as per the first linked post as I wasn't really understanding where all the time things were at.
Now that I think we have established that it is only the Captain's Log that is showing shortened time, we can rely on what we see in the cockpit and work from that.
Would be nice to have the Captain's Log looked at though.

Problem with the B377 with its old accusim programming, it might not be an easy task. Scott has previously talked about this being a can of worms. hehe.
In the past year he has mentioned in posts about the B-17 and P-47 but I cant remember every seeing anything about the B377 when talking about upgrading.
Im afraid we may never see this plane make the jump to P3D or even MSFS. I really hope I am wrong on this.
Cheers
Trev

Hook
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1358
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 01:38
Location: Bonham, Texas

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by Hook »

I really like the 377 and would buy it instantly if it appeared for P3D.

I suspect Scott is right and it really is a can of worms. I only have access to the various .xml code files, not the source code for the .dll files, and I have to format those before I can do anything with them. I wonder if there's a "pretty print" utility somewhere that works with xml; I don't really want to have to write my own but if I spend too much more time in that kind of code I may do just that.

I could get the screen display of the flight time working, but it had a few gotchas like, "what happens if I land and take off again?" My code doesn't work exactly like the original, although it does work. I didn't even think about trying to modify the underlying pilot's log code, although I have some ideas on how to work it. The next time I feel a need to fly the Connie it'll give me something to think about on the long flights. :D

Hook

TreeTops
Master Sergeant
Posts: 1086
Joined: 07 Apr 2010, 06:13

Re: 377 Captains Log - flight time error?

Post by TreeTops »

Make sure it's a long flight then! :D
Cheers
Trev

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