water in the fuel??

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AKar
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Re: water in the fuel??

Post by AKar »

No distribution system should let any significant quantities of non-dissolved water get pumped down the hose. Water cannot practically be filtered out of the fuel, however, it can be separated so that it won't end up into customer distribution. There are probably standards everywhere that consider the allowed contaminants in the fuel distribution, including the allowed amounts of water.

In practice, small quantities of water in fuel are harmless and unavoidable. The problem rises when the quantity of water is significant enough so that it 'separates' into a 'pool' that gets into the fuel system. GAs typically feed from rather low positions in the tanks (for obvious reasons), aggravating the issue.

A large airliner may typically have several liters worth of water in its fuel tanks.

-Esa

cessna lover

Re: water in the fuel??

Post by cessna lover »

Hook wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 16:14
cessna lover wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 06:50
Hook wrote: 18 Nov 2020, 15:18 I've had water in the fuel a couple of times.
i hope you mean virtually you had water in your fuel??
Everything I wrote applies to the sim. I don't fly in real life.

The only time I've had a real life problem with water in the fuel was with a Goldwing motorcycle that had filled the water trap and the water backed up into the cylinders. The engine would not turn, and removing the spark plugs and cranking the engine resulted in lots of water shooting out the spark plug holes. Now that I knew about the water trap, I made sure to empty it frequently.

As for having problems with fuel bought from a pump, the only problem I had was with a diesel car. The filling station I normally used had let their fuel filter clog up and instead of replacing it they simply removed it. The fuel now flowed properly from the pump, but I was replacing my car's fuel filter every few days until the crud in my fuel tank was exhausted. I started using another filling station as soon as I realized what had happened, luckily before I got fuel there a second time.

This should never happen with aviation fuel, but you never know what might be going on at small airports.

In the sim with A2A aircraft, you can occasionally get water in the fuel. Always check before flight.

Hook
good to know that this is all sim related :D i was just wondering if this issue has ever come up in a virtual A2A airplane. i know i have had to replace breaks once and i broke a flap in the mustang. and a cylinder in the B-17. i wonder what other little virtual surprises one can get from a virtual A2A plane? :lol:

cessna lover

Re: water in the fuel??

Post by cessna lover »

AKar wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 04:02 No distribution system should let any significant quantities of non-dissolved water get pumped down the hose. Water cannot practically be filtered out of the fuel, however, it can be separated so that it won't end up into customer distribution. There are probably standards everywhere that consider the allowed contaminants in the fuel distribution, including the allowed amounts of water.

In practice, small quantities of water in fuel are harmless and unavoidable. The problem rises when the quantity of water is significant enough so that it 'separates' into a 'pool' that gets into the fuel system. GAs typically feed from rather low positions in the tanks (for obvious reasons), aggravating the issue.

A large airliner may typically have several liters worth of water in its fuel tanks.

-Esa
whoa now that's scary. jets like jet fuel not water. lol airplanes and water should never mix unless it's a float plane :lol:

Hook
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Re: water in the fuel??

Post by Hook »

cessna lover wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 06:54i wonder what other little virtual surprises one can get from a virtual A2A plane? :lol:
I think with A2A aircraft, you should assume that anything that can happen in a real aircraft can happen in your sim. :)

For example, while I've never blown a tire, or had to replace tires due to wear, I'm not going to assume it can't possibly happen. As far as I can tell, this isn't modelled in any of my A2A aircraft but who knows for sure, especially with future aircraft or after an update? I think it was Scott who thought he'd encountered a bug in the Bonanza but it turned out one of his ailerons had frozen. :D

The oddest thing I've had happen was with the B377 Stratocruiser. I'd landed in hot weather and left all four engines running to keep the cabin cool. While the passengers were unloading, I suddenly heard screams. A quick check of the instruments showed everything within normal parameters, but after the flight the hangar showed one of my left side engines had dropped two levels.

I think one of my passengers wandered into the spinning prop. This was never verified by A2A as being able to happen, but ever since I've shut down the left side engines before allowing the passengers off the plane.

Hook

cessna lover

Re: water in the fuel??

Post by cessna lover »

Hook wrote: 21 Nov 2020, 03:24
cessna lover wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 06:54i wonder what other little virtual surprises one can get from a virtual A2A plane? :lol:
I think with A2A aircraft, you should assume that anything that can happen in a real aircraft can happen in your sim. :)

For example, while I've never blown a tire, or had to replace tires due to wear, I'm not going to assume it can't possibly happen. As far as I can tell, this isn't modelled in any of my A2A aircraft but who knows for sure, especially with future aircraft or after an update? I think it was Scott who thought he'd encountered a bug in the Bonanza but it turned out one of his ailerons had frozen. :D

The oddest thing I've had happen was with the B377 Stratocruiser. I'd landed in hot weather and left all four engines running to keep the cabin cool. While the passengers were unloading, I suddenly heard screams. A quick check of the instruments showed everything within normal parameters, but after the flight the hangar showed one of my left side engines had dropped two levels.

I think one of my passengers wandered into the spinning prop. This was never verified by A2A as being able to happen, but ever since I've shut down the left side engines before allowing the passengers off the plane.

Hook
ewww now who gets to clean up that mess? :lol: i lost all 4 engines in the Connie once

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AKar
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Re: water in the fuel??

Post by AKar »

Having personally done both "hot refueling" and "hot seating" quite a few times, these are indeed some processes that can get dangerous and fast. I don't know the slightest what was the procedure back in time, but allowing the passengers to board an aircraft with turning props sounds scary to me, unless very properly supervised. The cabin crew should not allow that to happen easily. Those who are regularly working around and under aircraft with running engines must recognize the hazard areas and know them by heart. This cannot be said of a passenger, or even a flight crew member who's not a regular to such procedures.

-Esa

cessna lover

Re: water in the fuel??

Post by cessna lover »

AKar wrote: 21 Nov 2020, 12:19 Having personally done both "hot refueling" and "hot seating" quite a few times, these are indeed some processes that can get dangerous and fast. I don't know the slightest what was the procedure back in time, but allowing the passengers to board an aircraft with turning props sounds scary to me, unless very properly supervised. The cabin crew should not allow that to happen easily. Those who are regularly working around and under aircraft with running engines must recognize the hazard areas and know them by heart. This cannot be said of a passenger, or even a flight crew member who's not a regular to such procedures.

-Esa
why would that be done any way? you are right that is extremely dangerous and should never be done with any aircraft jet or propeller powered. i will have to look and see in the FAR/AIM about this one. it seems to me that the airline/charter or what ever it is should NEVER allow this kind of boarding/deboarding procedure :shock:

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AKar
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Re: water in the fuel??

Post by AKar »

cessna lover wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 07:07
AKar wrote: 21 Nov 2020, 12:19 Having personally done both "hot refueling" and "hot seating" quite a few times, these are indeed some processes that can get dangerous and fast. I don't know the slightest what was the procedure back in time, but allowing the passengers to board an aircraft with turning props sounds scary to me, unless very properly supervised. The cabin crew should not allow that to happen easily. Those who are regularly working around and under aircraft with running engines must recognize the hazard areas and know them by heart. This cannot be said of a passenger, or even a flight crew member who's not a regular to such procedures.

-Esa
why would that be done any way? you are right that is extremely dangerous and should never be done with any aircraft jet or propeller powered. i will have to look and see in the FAR/AIM about this one. it seems to me that the airline/charter or what ever it is should NEVER allow this kind of boarding/deboarding procedure :shock:
There can be reasons to not shut down the engine(s) when changing a crew member for example, or boarding an aircraft. I won't get too much into details, but in civil aviation context this is sometimes done in parachuting. In military, it may sometimes make sense to leave the aircraft with engines running when changing the crew and refueling.

-Esa

cessna lover

Re: water in the fuel??

Post by cessna lover »

AKar wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 07:56
cessna lover wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 07:07
AKar wrote: 21 Nov 2020, 12:19 Having personally done both "hot refueling" and "hot seating" quite a few times, these are indeed some processes that can get dangerous and fast. I don't know the slightest what was the procedure back in time, but allowing the passengers to board an aircraft with turning props sounds scary to me, unless very properly supervised. The cabin crew should not allow that to happen easily. Those who are regularly working around and under aircraft with running engines must recognize the hazard areas and know them by heart. This cannot be said of a passenger, or even a flight crew member who's not a regular to such procedures.

-Esa
why would that be done any way? you are right that is extremely dangerous and should never be done with any aircraft jet or propeller powered. i will have to look and see in the FAR/AIM about this one. it seems to me that the airline/charter or what ever it is should NEVER allow this kind of boarding/deboarding procedure :shock:
There can be reasons to not shut down the engine(s) when changing a crew member for example, or boarding an aircraft. I won't get too much into details, but in civil aviation context this is sometimes done in parachuting. In military, it may sometimes make sense to leave the aircraft with engines running when changing the crew and refueling.

-Esa
well i did some research on this and there is no aviation law saying this practice can not be done. but i did read that some airlines using the Bombardier Q200 and 400 series would do this but they shut down the port engine and left the starboard engine running. and as far as doing this in the military yes i have seen this with the C-130 Hercules and the C-5 Galaxy and the C17 and helicopters. but they are from the back the cargo planes and the propellers are not that close to the ground on the C-130. and the jets on the C-5 are not that low. but as far as civilian prop planes that's extremely dangerous

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MkIV Hvd
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Re: water in the fuel??

Post by MkIV Hvd »

cessna lover wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 09:56 well i did some research on this and there is no aviation law saying this practice can not be done.
The law against doing this is called Murphy's Law. In this case it says that if you leave a left engine running while deplaning/boarding passengers or crew, someone will walk into a spinning prop or drop something that will of course go through the jet engine... :wink:

The only time I've ever done that was during a stop to pick up a passenger on the way from Utica to Oshkosh in a Westwind. The owner had been briefed by my co-captain the day before on what time we needed to be airborne out of Utica in order to be on time for his dinner meeting in Oshkosh the nest day and in spite of that, showed up an hour late. I don't remember where we stopped but it was on the east side of Lake Michigan and of course the "boss" came forward a couple of times to check on our ETA at KOSH on the way to pickup his passenger. The second time, I explained that we cruise the airplane as fast as possible all the time ... M.72 in this case ... so if you are an hour late for a carefully planned departure, there is no way to make up time on the way...idiot... :roll:

I thought we were done, but he came forward once again on descent to say that I needed to keep both engines running while we picked up the passenger. After he went back I turned to Ken and said, "I'm shutting down the left engine." Ken said, "I know...".

Leaving an engine running on the left side is just asking for Murphy to show up. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Rob
Rob Wilkinson
A2A: Civilian Mustang, T-6, Bonanza, Comanche, Cub, C182, Spitfire, P-40, Cherokee, P-51 - VATSIM P4 and some other stuff...

cessna lover

Re: water in the fuel??

Post by cessna lover »

MkIV Hvd wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 11:35
cessna lover wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 09:56 well i did some research on this and there is no aviation law saying this practice can not be done.
The law against doing this is called Murphy's Law. In this case it says that if you leave a left engine running while deplaning/boarding passengers or crew, someone will walk into a spinning prop or drop something that will of course go through the jet engine... :wink:

The only time I've ever done that was during a stop to pick up a passenger on the way from Utica to Oshkosh in a Westwind. The owner had been briefed by my co-captain the day before on what time we needed to be airborne out of Utica in order to be on time for his dinner meeting in Oshkosh the nest day and in spite of that, showed up an hour late. I don't remember where we stopped but it was on the east side of Lake Michigan and of course the "boss" came forward a couple of times to check on our ETA at KOSH on the way to pickup his passenger. The second time, I explained that we cruise the airplane as fast as possible all the time ... M.72 in this case ... so if you are an hour late for a carefully planned departure, there is no way to make up time on the way...idiot... :roll:

I thought we were done, but he came forward once again on descent to say that I needed to keep both engines running while we picked up the passenger. After he went back I turned to Ken and said, "I'm shutting down the left engine." Ken said, "I know...".

Leaving an engine running on the left side is just asking for Murphy to show up. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Rob
yeah Murphy and ralph. murphy shows up make bad things happen and ralph always ruins party's if you know what i mean? :lol: :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

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AKar
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Re: water in the fuel??

Post by AKar »

Well, it goes without saying that in cases I referred into previously, the left one was shut down when applicable (though not always), and the residual hazards I was speaking of - which often are still significant - were considering the off-side engine. Leaving the engine running on the port side for regular boarding... for murders and suicides I'd recommend using a rifle, for bullets are much less expensive than the propulsion system parts. :shock:

-Esa

cessna lover

Re: water in the fuel??

Post by cessna lover »

AKar wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 12:28 Well, it goes without saying that in cases I referred into previously, the left one was shut down when applicable (though not always), and the residual hazards I was speaking of - which often are still significant - were considering the off-side engine. Leaving the engine running on the port side for regular boarding... for murders and suicides I'd recommend using a rifle, for bullets are much less expensive than the propulsion system parts. :shock:

-Esa
:lol: good point.

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