Too sensitive while take-off and landing

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kranck007
Airman Basic
Posts: 4
Joined: 05 Jan 2019, 09:14

Too sensitive while take-off and landing

Post by kranck007 »

I have a problem with, in particular, single-engine, light GA airplanes, I need your help. I already have many years of experience in flight simulation and fly large jets relatively easily. In reality, I have no flight experience whatsoever. The take-off is particularly problematic, but also the landing. When flying manually in the air, the planes are very sensitive, but still controllable. But obviously they behave completely differently on the ground than in the air, and this leads to the fact that they change their direction considerably immediately after taking off and immediately after touching down and thus become uncontrollable.

Immediately after take-off, the plane pulls completely to the left or right, so that, even if you expect it, you can hardly counter-steer. After touching down, the machine breaks away too, so badly that you can hardly counter-steer, or you react too strongly, which then results in a slalom ride.

It seems plausible to assume that the nose wheel may not be pointing straight ahead. But I don't know if and how you can steer the nose wheel. In addition, the machine goes straight ahead when taxi.

I switched off the wind, it is not the cause. The forces of the rotating propeller could be the cause, but they seem way too strong to me. You can't fly like that, and I don't think you can learn it by training.

Overall, the controls seem very sensitive to me, although a less sensitive calibration of the joystick doesn't help either. Yes, I fly with a joystick, and I also thought that maybe a yoke is better. In YouTube videos I see pilots controlling the yoke quite rough, while with my joystick even the smallest movements give a strong reaction. I'm afraid that if I buy an expensive yoke, it will be just as sensitive as the joystick, so that would not help me.

I hope for your tips and experiences. Somehow the small planes must be flyable! (I'm mainly talking about the A2A planes: C172, C182, Cherokee, Comanche, Bonanza V-Tail).

Thanks and regards
Norbert

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DHenriques_
A2A Chief Pilot
Posts: 5711
Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
Location: East Coast United States

Re: Too sensitive while take-off and landing

Post by DHenriques_ »

kranck007 wrote: 20 Feb 2021, 16:33 I have a problem with, in particular, single-engine, light GA airplanes, I need your help. I already have many years of experience in flight simulation and fly large jets relatively easily. In reality, I have no flight experience whatsoever. The take-off is particularly problematic, but also the landing. When flying manually in the air, the planes are very sensitive, but still controllable. But obviously they behave completely differently on the ground than in the air, and this leads to the fact that they change their direction considerably immediately after taking off and immediately after touching down and thus become uncontrollable.

Immediately after take-off, the plane pulls completely to the left or right, so that, even if you expect it, you can hardly counter-steer. After touching down, the machine breaks away too, so badly that you can hardly counter-steer, or you react too strongly, which then results in a slalom ride.

It seems plausible to assume that the nose wheel may not be pointing straight ahead. But I don't know if and how you can steer the nose wheel. In addition, the machine goes straight ahead when taxi.

I switched off the wind, it is not the cause. The forces of the rotating propeller could be the cause, but they seem way too strong to me. You can't fly like that, and I don't think you can learn it by training.

Overall, the controls seem very sensitive to me, although a less sensitive calibration of the joystick doesn't help either. Yes, I fly with a joystick, and I also thought that maybe a yoke is better. In YouTube videos I see pilots controlling the yoke quite rough, while with my joystick even the smallest movements give a strong reaction. I'm afraid that if I buy an expensive yoke, it will be just as sensitive as the joystick, so that would not help me.

I hope for your tips and experiences. Somehow the small planes must be flyable! (I'm mainly talking about the A2A planes: C172, C182, Cherokee, Comanche, Bonanza V-Tail).

Thanks and regards
Norbert
if you rotate an airplane with any degree of pitch rate on takeoff you will immediately be caught in a tug of war between P Factor and Spiraling slipstream which are yaw forces to the left, torque, which is a roll force to the left, and gyroscopic precession which is usually incorrectly attributed to be a left turning force but in reality can be either direction depending on whether the nose is being forced up or forced down. At takeoff rotation the prop disk is being rotated upward and gyroscopic precession is a force to the RIGHT and is corrected in yaw.
The bottom line on rotation is which forces win the tug of war? It's usually the left side forces so the usual correction is right rudder. (Just remember that gyroscopic correction at rotation would be a right rudder correction. Actually, in flight, ANYTIME you are "pulling g" you need right rudder.
Confused yet? :-))))))))))
Try rotating slowly and very smoothly. The sim is probably giving P Factor the edge along with the other left forces and that's why you are getting that sudden left force at rotation. The smoother you are and the more slowly you rotate the aircraft on takeoff the less these forces will affect you.
All this having been said, the sim might be overdoing it a bit. LOL
Dudley Henriques

kranck007
Airman Basic
Posts: 4
Joined: 05 Jan 2019, 09:14

Re: Too sensitive while take-off and landing

Post by kranck007 »

Hi, thanks for explanation. Yes, a little bit confused, but the main advice was helpful: rotate slowly and smoothly. I didn't expect that this will help because in my desperation I already tried all possible solutions, and to be careful and smooth is a very obvious solution. But the intention to do it smoothly resulted in much better take-offs and landings. It is good to know that the fault is not because of incorrectly working software or wrong adjustment of nose wheel.
Regards, Norbert

Tomas Linnet
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Re: Too sensitive while take-off and landing

Post by Tomas Linnet »

also try to add 5kts to your rotation speed, it makes a huge difference
Kind Regards
Tomas

Sim: FSX SE
Accu-Sim aircraft in my hangar:
C172, C182, P51 Civ, P51 Mil, B17, Spitfire, P47, B377 COTS,
J3 Cub, T6, Connie, P-40, V35B
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DHenriques_
A2A Chief Pilot
Posts: 5711
Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
Location: East Coast United States

Re: Too sensitive while take-off and landing

Post by DHenriques_ »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 20 Feb 2021, 17:45
kranck007 wrote: 20 Feb 2021, 16:33 I have a problem with, in particular, single-engine, light GA airplanes, I need your help. I already have many years of experience in flight simulation and fly large jets relatively easily. In reality, I have no flight experience whatsoever. The take-off is particularly problematic, but also the landing. When flying manually in the air, the planes are very sensitive, but still controllable. But obviously they behave completely differently on the ground than in the air, and this leads to the fact that they change their direction considerably immediately after taking off and immediately after touching down and thus become uncontrollable.

Immediately after take-off, the plane pulls completely to the left or right, so that, even if you expect it, you can hardly counter-steer. After touching down, the machine breaks away too, so badly that you can hardly counter-steer, or you react too strongly, which then results in a slalom ride.

It seems plausible to assume that the nose wheel may not be pointing straight ahead. But I don't know if and how you can steer the nose wheel. In addition, the machine goes straight ahead when taxi.

I switched off the wind, it is not the cause. The forces of the rotating propeller could be the cause, but they seem way too strong to me. You can't fly like that, and I don't think you can learn it by training.

Overall, the controls seem very sensitive to me, although a less sensitive calibration of the joystick doesn't help either. Yes, I fly with a joystick, and I also thought that maybe a yoke is better. In YouTube videos I see pilots controlling the yoke quite rough, while with my joystick even the smallest movements give a strong reaction. I'm afraid that if I buy an expensive yoke, it will be just as sensitive as the joystick, so that would not help me.

I hope for your tips and experiences. Somehow the small planes must be flyable! (I'm mainly talking about the A2A planes: C172, C182, Cherokee, Comanche, Bonanza V-Tail).

Thanks and regards
Norbert
if you rotate an airplane with any degree of pitch rate on takeoff you will immediately be caught in a tug of war between P Factor and Spiraling slipstream which are yaw forces to the left, torque, which is a roll force to the left, and gyroscopic precession which is usually incorrectly attributed to be a left turning force but in reality can be either direction depending on whether the nose is being forced up or forced down. At takeoff rotation the prop disk is being rotated upward and gyroscopic precession is a force to the RIGHT and is corrected in yaw.
The bottom line on rotation is which forces win the tug of war? It's usually the left side forces so the usual correction is right rudder. (Just remember that gyroscopic correction at rotation would be a left rudder correction. Actually, in flight, ANYTIME you are "pulling g" you need left rudder.
Confused yet? :-))))))))))
Try rotating slowly and very smoothly. The sim is probably giving P Factor the edge along with the other left forces and that's why you are getting that sudden left force at rotation. The smoother you are and the more slowly you rotate the aircraft on takeoff the less these forces will affect you.
All this having been said, the sim might be overdoing it a bit. LOL
Dudley Henriques

User avatar
DHenriques_
A2A Chief Pilot
Posts: 5711
Joined: 27 Mar 2009, 08:31
Location: East Coast United States

Re: Too sensitive while take-off and landing

Post by DHenriques_ »

DHenriquesA2A wrote: 20 Feb 2021, 17:45
kranck007 wrote: 20 Feb 2021, 16:33 I have a problem with, in particular, single-engine, light GA airplanes, I need your help. I already have many years of experience in flight simulation and fly large jets relatively easily. In reality, I have no flight experience whatsoever. The take-off is particularly problematic, but also the landing. When flying manually in the air, the planes are very sensitive, but still controllable. But obviously they behave completely differently on the ground than in the air, and this leads to the fact that they change their direction considerably immediately after taking off and immediately after touching down and thus become uncontrollable.

Immediately after take-off, the plane pulls completely to the left or right, so that, even if you expect it, you can hardly counter-steer. After touching down, the machine breaks away too, so badly that you can hardly counter-steer, or you react too strongly, which then results in a slalom ride.

It seems plausible to assume that the nose wheel may not be pointing straight ahead. But I don't know if and how you can steer the nose wheel. In addition, the machine goes straight ahead when taxi.

I switched off the wind, it is not the cause. The forces of the rotating propeller could be the cause, but they seem way too strong to me. You can't fly like that, and I don't think you can learn it by training.

Overall, the controls seem very sensitive to me, although a less sensitive calibration of the joystick doesn't help either. Yes, I fly with a joystick, and I also thought that maybe a yoke is better. In YouTube videos I see pilots controlling the yoke quite rough, while with my joystick even the smallest movements give a strong reaction. I'm afraid that if I buy an expensive yoke, it will be just as sensitive as the joystick, so that would not help me.

I hope for your tips and experiences. Somehow the small planes must be flyable! (I'm mainly talking about the A2A planes: C172, C182, Cherokee, Comanche, Bonanza V-Tail).

Thanks and regards
Norbert
if you rotate an airplane with any degree of pitch rate on takeoff you will immediately be caught in a tug of war between P Factor and Spiraling slipstream which are yaw forces to the left, torque, which is a roll force to the left, and gyroscopic precession which is usually incorrectly attributed to be a left turning force but in reality can be either direction depending on whether the propeller disk is being forced up or forced down. At takeoff rotation the prop disk is being rotated upward and gyroscopic precession is a force 90 degrees ahead of the propeller on the the RIGHT side of the disk and is corrected in yaw as a LEFT rudder correction. How fast you rotate the airplane will affect how much precession you get. Usually it's the forces other than precession that win the battle so right rudder correction on takeoff is usually dominant. But make no mistake, in some tailwheel aircraft with powerful engines like a Griffon in a Mk 14 Spitfire where the propeller rotation is opposite the norm, all the above is now reversed. Add to this that lifting the tail on a Griffon Spitfire early on takeoff coupled with lots of power and gyroscopic precession can spoil your day in a hurry.
The bottom line on rotation is which forces win the tug of war? It's usually the left side forces so the usual correction is right rudder. (Just remember that gyroscopic correction at rotation would be a right rudder correction. Actually, in flight, ANYTIME you are "pulling g" you need right rudder.
Confused yet? :-))))))))))
Try rotating slowly and very smoothly. The sim is probably giving P Factor the edge along with the other left forces and that's why you are getting that sudden left force at rotation. The smoother you are and the more slowly you rotate the aircraft on takeoff the less these forces will affect you.
All this having been said, the sim might be overdoing it a bit. LOL
Dudley Henriques

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