Tipping over

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twsharp12
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Tipping over

Post by twsharp12 »

In real life, how common was it for spitfire pilots to bang the wings on the ground during taxi? For me it seems to be too much, and I have been practicing, but it's tough for me to be so gentle on the rudder. Were wing tips very rugged?

Also, how common were prop strikes on the ground?

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Killratio
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Re: Tipping over

Post by Killratio »

The Spitfire, with its narrow track undercarriage, necessitated by the gun arrangement vs the thickness of chord is not very stable on the ground.
Add to this the fact that she is also nose heavy on the ground.

Having established that as a base...

The Spitfire was usually, under RAF rules and procedures, taxied with an erk walking beside each wingtip (Aircraft Fitter and Mechanic if memory serves). They were able to guide the pilot and also
add the needed weight if the aircraft tipped up a wing. I think the main problem in sim is that sim pilots universally (from all I have seen and I'll put MY hand up too) taxi far faster than you would taxi a real aircraft.
The problem with too fast in a real aircraft is it only takes a small gust of wind to get one or more of the surfaces "flying". I think most pilots here would have experienced the unpleasant feeling of the aircraft "getting light"
on the taxi and that is not nice, particularly in a tail dragger. Taxi should not be made at any more than a brisk walking pace. If you keep the Spitfire down to that, keep the controls locked firmly in your belly and turn gently
you will all but eliminate the tip.

Airscrew strikes were fairly common. There is about a 7" inch gap at flying attitude between the tips and the ground. Given the nose heavy state, any overuse of brakes or power on the ground will lift the tail dangerously.

This is the reason that the parking brakes (the hand lever "locked" over by the clip) should be disengaged before the chocks are removed. The brakes should be held by hand after that so that at any time if the tail rises, they can be released and the aircraft allowed to roll forward rather than tip. Also, on takeoff, the column should NEVER be pushed forward of neutral (actually at 11 degrees aft) and should be allowed to release slowly and evenly to neutral at about the same rate as the throttle moves forward, the right rudder goes on and the right aileron comes off during the takeoff roll. Your arms and right leg moving in concert.

"Pecking" as it was called, often resulted from pilots trying to lift the tail, overusing power without erks on the tail or using too much brake on landing.
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Lewis - A2A
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Re: Tipping over

Post by Lewis - A2A »

Wasnt there some random stat out there that showed the 109's losses where equally as a result of narrow track undercarriage as by combat itself (109 has is narrower than the Spitfre). So yes, tipping over in sim via going too fast due to lack of seat of pants and speed awareness I guess, could be a real issue.

cheers,
Lewis
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twsharp12
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Re: Tipping over

Post by twsharp12 »

Killratio wrote: 23 Aug 2020, 22:09 The Spitfire, with its narrow track undercarriage, necessitated by the gun arrangement vs the thickness of chord is not very stable on the ground.
Add to this the fact that she is also nose heavy on the ground.

Having established that as a base...

The Spitfire was usually, under RAF rules and procedures, taxied with an erk walking beside each wingtip (Aircraft Fitter and Mechanic if memory serves). They were able to guide the pilot and also
add the needed weight if the aircraft tipped up a wing. I think the main problem in sim is that sim pilots universally (from all I have seen and I'll put MY hand up too) taxi far faster than you would taxi a real aircraft.
The problem with too fast in a real aircraft is it only takes a small gust of wind to get one or more of the surfaces "flying". I think most pilots here would have experienced the unpleasant feeling of the aircraft "getting light"
on the taxi and that is not nice, particularly in a tail dragger. Taxi should not be made at any more than a brisk walking pace. If you keep the Spitfire down to that, keep the controls locked firmly in your belly and turn gently
you will all but eliminate the tip.

Airscrew strikes were fairly common. There is about a 7" inch gap at flying attitude between the tips and the ground. Given the nose heavy state, any overuse of brakes or power on the ground will lift the tail dangerously.

This is the reason that the parking brakes (the hand lever "locked" over by the clip) should be disengaged before the chocks are removed. The brakes should be held by hand after that so that at any time if the tail rises, they can be released and the aircraft allowed to roll forward rather than tip. Also, on takeoff, the column should NEVER be pushed forward of neutral (actually at 11 degrees aft) and should be allowed to release slowly and evenly to neutral at about the same rate as the throttle moves forward, the right rudder goes on and the right aileron comes off during the takeoff roll. Your arms and right leg moving in concert.

"Pecking" as it was called, often resulted from pilots trying to lift the tail, overusing power without erks on the tail or using too much brake on landing.
This is exactly the information I was looking for. The Spit gives me the biggest headache out of all the A2A planes when I try to taxi it. They say... GOGOGO get it off the ground so it doesn't over heat, but at the same time it sounds like you have to keep it slow. Maybe I just need to make sure I'm starting the engine right by the runway with my slew before I even star my checklists.

Thanks for the information.

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Jacques
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Re: Tipping over

Post by Jacques »

Yes, close to the runway as possible, or use something like Ian Pearson’s RAF Hornchurch, whose “runway” is a massive field of turf! Instead of slewing, try starting the sim in a default aircraft and taxi to where you want to be, then shut it down with all electrics off. Then load in the Spitfire. Once you get used to the flow of things in the Spitfire, the actual checks can move fairly fast, leaving you some wiggle room on the temps!

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Killratio
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Re: Tipping over

Post by Killratio »

Lewis - A2A wrote: 24 Aug 2020, 10:00 Wasnt there some random stat out there that showed the 109's losses where equally as a result of narrow track undercarriage as by combat itself (109 has is narrower than the Spitfire). So yes, tipping over in sim via going too fast due to lack of seat of pants and speed awareness I guess, could be a real issue.

cheers,
Lewis
There was, yes Lewis. The 109 was even less pleasant on the ground than the Spitfire. Apparently much harder to land, with a much greater tendency to swing badly on the landing run too. I think the statistic not only covered airframe losses but casualties as well, indicating (to me at least) that many were high speed accidents.

D
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Killratio
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Re: Tipping over

Post by Killratio »

twsharp12 wrote: 24 Aug 2020, 15:58
This is exactly the information I was looking for. The Spit gives me the biggest headache out of all the A2A planes when I try to taxi it. They say... GOGOGO get it off the ground so it doesn't over heat, but at the same time it sounds like you have to keep it slow. Maybe I just need to make sure I'm starting the engine right by the runway with my slew before I even star my checklists.

Thanks for the information.

You're very welcome.

The trick is to do the checklist quickly and smoothly and only have short (2 minute) taxi times. It is doable as long as you don't want to wander around Heathrow all day. Jacques is right, they were designed for start up and head into wind.
Grass aerodromes are best.

Have a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bMrhLG3tM4

You can see the bouncing around even at that speed. BTW AR213 had a Merlin 30 or 35 in it at the time if I recall correctly and the heat build up is even faster in those bigger engines.
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twsharp12
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Re: Tipping over

Post by twsharp12 »

Killratio wrote: 24 Aug 2020, 20:56
twsharp12 wrote: 24 Aug 2020, 15:58
This is exactly the information I was looking for. The Spit gives me the biggest headache out of all the A2A planes when I try to taxi it. They say... GOGOGO get it off the ground so it doesn't over heat, but at the same time it sounds like you have to keep it slow. Maybe I just need to make sure I'm starting the engine right by the runway with my slew before I even star my checklists.

Thanks for the information.

You're very welcome.

The trick is to do the checklist quickly and smoothly and only have short (2 minute) taxi times. It is doable as long as you don't want to wander around Heathrow all day. Jacques is right, they were designed for start up and head into wind.
Grass aerodromes are best.

Have a look at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bMrhLG3tM4

You can see the bouncing around even at that speed. BTW AR213 had a Merlin 30 or 35 in it at the time if I recall correctly and the heat build up is even faster in those bigger engines.
Thanks for the vid. Very neat

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Jacques
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Re: Tipping over

Post by Jacques »

Still one of my favorite Spitfire Videos “....she’s old enough to smoke, so...”😀

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