Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

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Rowcoach
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Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by Rowcoach »

Good morning,

Picked up the military version of the P51 for P3D yesterday. It looks great and I’m enjoying trying to figure it out. I’m struggling a lot with taking off. I have rudder trim set to +6.0, elevator trim set to +4.0, and aileron trim at 0.0. As suggested in a tutorial by FS Mania, I start my take off roll down the runway with a little back presser on the stick. When I do manage to get onto the main wheels, it takes a little coaxing to convince the plane that it wants to fly. Now is where things get interesting. I immediately drift to the left, then flip upside down before diving into the ground. I’m still pretty low, so there is very little opportunity to recover.

There is a very strong possibility that I’m doing something wrong. I’ll keep working with it. Does anyone have any suggestions on what should try?

One unrelated question - I purchased the B17 a few years ago for FSX. I remember having to purchase the Wings of Power B17 and then the accusim expansion pack. I have the accusim P51, do I need the Wings of Power 3 P51 as well? Or is what I purchased from the A2A site a complete package?

Cheers,

Colin

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MkIV Hvd
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by MkIV Hvd »

Hi Colin!

The best thing you can do is read this tutorial: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=31684&start=15

The Mustang is a handful and I found I had more difficulty with takeoffs than landings right from the start. In a nutshell, if you have to coax it to fly, it's not ready yet...and it REALLY doesn't like being told to do something it's not ready to do! :mrgreen: Check out Dudley's tutorial, go practice and let us know how you're making out.

Welcome to the most welcoming support forum on the web!

Cheers,
Rob
Rob Wilkinson
A2A: Civilian Mustang, T-6, Bonanza, Comanche, Cub, C182, Spitfire, P-40, Cherokee, P-51 - VATSIM P4 and some other stuff...

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Nick - A2A
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by Nick - A2A »

Hi Colin and welcome.

Some great advice from Rob above. Another little tip while you're getting used to the P-51 is to avoid taking off with a full fuel load, let alone any stores on the external pylons. Specifically, try emptying the fuselage fuel tank, or removing this tank altogether.

Thanks,
Nick
A2A Simulations Inc.

Rowcoach
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by Rowcoach »

Hey Rob and Nick,

Thanks for your replies and the welcomes. I see what you mean about take off being the hardest point. I'll keep working on it. I just tried another take off. The rolling over seems to happen just as I retract the gear. My guess is that's because (a) I don't have enough air speed, (b) my rudder is still trimmed to 6 degrees, and/or (c) probably most likely is that the gear pulls up one at a time. I think it is the left side that retracts first. This I guess would cause too much drag on the other side causing me to roll over. I'll try retracting the gear a little later and see if that helps.

Nick - I'll try with just wing tanks and see if that helps. Thank you.

Rob - I'll take a look at the tutorial you posted. I lived in Calgary before moving to Vancouver 12 years ago. I try to head back for a week every summer. Not sure if that'll be happening this year.

Cheers,

colin

Artur
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by Artur »

Never try to lift her off the ground if speed is lower or at 100kts.
At 120kts her nasty take off characteristic is largely reduced.

LimaPapa
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by LimaPapa »

Hi Colin,
You are definitely not alone and your trials do sound similar to my early attempts, though minus the upside down flip?

I’m running the P-51 (mil), and have around 35hrs logged on FSX, so very much still a rookie. I too picked up on the FSMania tutorial (also some real world tips/videos from various online sources including Stallion51 who have a few interesting articles in their media section worth a look).

My usual setup is with fuselage tank removed and +65 gall left tank and +63 gall right tank, extra fuel is to allow for start and taxi with the left tank and totals are based on real world endurance values of approx 63 gall per hour, + 1hour diversion fuel (just my sim scenario,,).

Take-off: Trim +6.0 right rudder, +0.0 aileron, +2.5 to +3.0 elevator up (or nose up). Line up on runway, brakes on, stick back, rpm to 1500,, release brakes and begin rolling,, ready with the rudder pedals,, smoothly increase MP to 40”,, around 80-90mph gently let the stick forward and allow the tail to rise,, now hold the line with gentle rudder inputs,, then either increase MP to around 50” and she’ll fly herself off the ground or stay at 40” and just tease the stick back around 120mph and she should float off the ground,, establish positive rate of climb and gear up,, counter with a little nose down trim at the same time and this will look and feel smooth. I had tried take-offs with nose down trim, zero trim and around +5.0 nose up trim but +2.5 to +3.0 seems to provide a nice balance of controllability and looks/feels smooth, on my setup.

My circuit procedure at present is along the lines of the FSMania tutorial though I don’t tend to apply any flap on the crosswind leg,, just first two stages to 20deg on entering downwind (this also holds if approaching for a run in and break where the speed readily bleeds off on the break to downwind, then I apply the flap(s)),, I then apply elevator trim sufficient to hold her level,, MP approx 26”, speed approx 150mph. Rudder trim set to +2.5 to +3.0 right rudder (I sometimes preset this on my run in to break), Midway or late downwind, gear down and more elevator trim to hold level or begin a gentle descent. Turn base leg.

Flaps to 30deg on turning base to final and more elevator trim as req’d (aiming to have a stable and fairly trimmed out airplane by this point),,. My focus now changes more to the rudder as I begin to line up with the runway. A nice function in FSX allows me to adjust my eyeline up/down which I now set, just enough to see along the top of the engine cowling which allows me to line up the centreline of the cowling with the centreline of the runway. Still applying small amounts of trim as I really don’t want any large elevator inputs at this stage and end up porpoising my way in. MP around 20” and speed approx 120mph.

Final: Stay lined up using the rudder and keep the wings level with a little opposite aileron (quite satisfying when this bit comes together),, feel your way in now with no sudden changes of anything and over the threshold approx 100 – 110 mph (gotta work on getting that speed bled off a bit better), gently reduce power and down with a hop and a skip (bounces are getting fewer,lol,,). Hold stick to keep the tail up and continue to work the rudder until the speed bleeds off and she settles on the runway,, I take the rudder trim off as she slows. A look at the elevator trim wheel will show that I’ve dialled in around +11 to +14 deg of total trim applied.

If going around: gently increase MP to around 26” (no sudden inputs), flaps up,, keep the tail up and keep her straight, ish,,, with rudder,, MP smoothly to 40” then when she’s ready, gently let the stick back a little (don’t forget there’s still +11 to +14 deg of elevator trim dialled in,,), and she’s airborne. Hold with the rudder, keep wings level, gear up and begin the change of trim,,,

This is as far as I’ve got and things are definitely now improving with each session. Once I’m reasonably proficient with the above procedure my next goal will be to reduce my circuit height to 1000ft (standard UK circuit height), and begin my base turn a little earlier, though this may take some time to achieve.

Hopefully there’s something in their that helps with your own flight training and I do find this model an absolute joy to fly right from start up through to shutdown. I can almost feel a breath of fresh air on my face as I open the canopy after 45mins or so in the circuit, lol,,

I’d also be grateful if any of the more experienced guys/girls out there can suggest any improvements I can begin to work on to really get that final approach nailed,,,

Best wishes,

JohnC (LimaPapa)

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Ron Attwood
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by Ron Attwood »

MP smoothly to 40” then when she’s ready, gently let the stick back a little (don’t forget there’s still +11 to +14 deg of elevator trim dialled in,,), and she’s airborne. Hold with the rudder, keep wings level, gear up and begin the change of trim,,,
At this point a smile starts to spread across your face which will persist! :D
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled"

LimaPapa
Airman
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Location: UK

Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by LimaPapa »

Absolutely,, cheers Ron

Rowcoach
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by Rowcoach »

Thank you very much,

Turns out I was probably trying to take off too early. I think my speed was usually between 90 and 105 mph. I assumed that as the tail started to lift off the ground, it was time to pull ba k on the stick. Reading the manual, the centre of gravity shifts back towards to tail as soon as the gear retracts. That, coupled with the low airspeed meant I was causing the plane to stall. Waiting for the mustang to lift off on its own made a huge difference. No more corkscrew of death. I may need to invest in a set of rudder peddles now. Trying to control the stick, throttle, and rudder using three separate joysticks can be challenging.

Cheers,

Colin

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Paughco
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by Paughco »

Awright! You're getting it! Now fly the heck out of it. Read the manual, and all of Dudley's tips, then fly some more! Bounceless landing is always a challenge if you haven't flown her in a while. You might want to go up to 10,000 feet or so and try a few stalls and recoveries therefrom, in both clean and dirty configurations. Once you've got that fully down, read Dudley's tips on how to do a loop. Good luck!

Hope to see you flying with the A2A MP Misfit Squadron someday!

Seeya
ATB
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LimaPapa
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by LimaPapa »

Hi Paughco,

Thanks, your note just about sums up an hour or so's flight training for me. I usually get airborne and head off for some general handling, as you describe including medium and steep turns,, fast/slow speed flight,, stalls,, all clean and also in landing configuration, then move on to aerobatics,, loops, cuban 8's wingovers, barrel & aileron rolls,,, all good, though not yet fully nailed a 4-point hesitation roll. Then head back to the field and spent remaining time in the circuit, usually 4-6 touch n goes before landing,,,

I've read up on Dudley's notes, had a good scour through the topics on this forum and various other P-51 online resources,,,

So it sounds like I'm generally doing the right sort of stuff,, just a matter of keeping at it,,, also really enjoying getting to grips with this model too,,

Cheers,

JohnC

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Lewis - A2A
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by Lewis - A2A »

LimaPapa wrote: 09 Jun 2020, 13:35 , just a matter of keeping at it,,, also really enjoying getting to grips with this model too,,
I think thats key and goes both ways too, as Ive found out when Ive spent too long away from the Mustang Simulation in favour of time in GA land or even a different warbird etc. :mrgreen: :D

cheers,
Lewis
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LimaPapa
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Joined: 16 Apr 2020, 09:03
Location: UK

Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by LimaPapa »

Hi Lewis,

Thanks, and yes I can relate to that. My normal mount (real & Sim) is the venerable PA38 Tomahawk so it's ingrained into me to ' round out & flair',,, so seems a little alien to me to now be holding the stick forward a little on touchdown,, tis getting there though and very satisfying when it comes off :D

kind regards,

JohnC

jsmanises2
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by jsmanises2 »

Rowcoach.
It's thanks to A2A Lieutenant Colonel Lewis I am here as I may have an alternative answer to your P51 problem.
I had same problem with my P51. My answer was to turn down P-factor and Torque, found under Settings - Realism, then progressively increase each flight until limit of control was reached.

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WB_FlashOver
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Re: Aircraft veers to left then corkscrews into ground after take off

Post by WB_FlashOver »

I love seeing new Mustang pilots here and watch as they grow with the aircraft. I say stay with it and the reward will be amazing.

I love this video and the Good Doctor has a great attitude and some great advice. "It's usually Right rudder....Unless it isn't" :D

Cheers
Roger

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